The Hidden Biases Hurting Your Decisions — And How to Fix Them with Nuala Walsh

Nuala Walsh: 00:00

And So what I tried to do was, as I said, there were there are 200 biases and what I tried to do was synchronize systematize 75 of those into a framework that, you know, that I that I called the perimeters traps because there are 10 of them. And that's a pneumonic, that Rep that symbolizes, you know, how we think in a bounded man.

Sam Sivarajan: 00:03

Yeah.

Nuala Walsh: 00:20

Or or, you know, or narrowly, we think so. Each of these traps is 6 or seven of these predictable biases that advisors might be aware of. And each of those, of course, is a source of misinformation. So even if I just run through them really quickly, so P is for the power based traps, and that's when you're involved, when you're pursuing power or authority or status or recognition.

Nuala Walsh: 00:41

Or you're just following the advice of as as we were talking about or authorities or experts, then you've got ego based.

Sam Sivarajan: 00:50

This is the future Ready Advisor, a show about transforming your financial advisory practice. I'm your host, Sam Sivarajan, A wealth management consultant, behavioral scientist and keynote speaker. In this podcast, I dive deep into the real Challenges advisors base and bring you insightful.

Sam Sivarajan: 01:09

Conversations with top industry experts together, we'll explore practical strategies grounded in behavioral science to help you better serve your clients, optimize your time, and build a future ready practice.

Sam Sivarajan: 01:26

Hi everyone. I'm Sam Sivarajan and welcome to the Future Ready advisor. Today we're diving into the fascinating world of decision making, why we sometimes get it wrong and more importantly how we can get it right. Today my guest is Noel Walsh, a behavioral scientist's accomplished executive and author of how to Make Smarter.

Sam Sivarajan: 01:47

Decisions in a noisy world, with the careers finding finance strategy and.

Sam Sivarajan: 01:52

Apology, she has advised Fortune 500 companies, elite athletes and even human rights agencies on decision making and risk perception. She's here to help us uncover the blind spots and death spots that trip us up. How to listen strategically and what financial advisors can do to help their clients.

Sam Sivarajan: 02:13

And themselves make better choices.

Sam Sivarajan: 02:15

Yamala, welcome to the show.

Nuala Walsh: 02:17

Thanks very much, Sam, great.

Nuala Walsh: 02:18

To be here.

Sam Sivarajan: 02:19

It's a.

Sam Sivarajan: 02:19

Pleasure to have you. And I think this.

Sam Sivarajan: 02:20

A particularly timely episode, as we're dealing with lots of things that are happening in the world that I think are demanding better, well thought out decisions. So I'm looking forward to our conversation and tips you may have, as I'm sure as our audience now, you've got a fascinating career spanning finance, behavioral science.

Sam Sivarajan: 02:41

And decision making research. I'm curious what led you to write particularly now how to make smarter decisions in a noisy way.

02:45

Right.

Sam Sivarajan: 02:49

Well, and how do you think your background shaped your perspective on decision?

02:54

Making yeah, it it, it's.

Nuala Walsh: 02:55

A. It's a great question, Sam, because.

Nuala Walsh: 02:58

I spent nearly 30.

Nuala Walsh: 02:59

Years in investment banking and and asset management. And I guess what I realised over that time was that you know, there's some really smart people and they make really stupid mistakes.

Nuala Walsh: 03:10

And although we know that supporter interested me most was the reasons why and what you could do about it. And I went back to school, if you like, maybe 5 or 6 years ago and I did a masters in behavioral science.

Nuala Walsh: 03:22

And what I was able to do from there was to understand the psychological reasons why people made all of these mistakes and to sort of categorize.

Nuala Walsh: 03:31

What I struck me most was that there was a major gap in the market in terms of how people and how business people thought about decision making. If you're successful, people assume you know that you've made great decisions, but not necessarily. And I guess what struck me was that.

03:34

Check up.

Nuala Walsh: 03:45

The biggest risk?

Nuala Walsh: 03:46

That I thought that people faced wasn't necessarily what we talked about all the time, economic, political or even climate risk. But it was human.

Nuala Walsh: 03:53

Decision, risk and.

Nuala Walsh: 03:54

The failure to hear.

Nuala Walsh: 03:56

Who and what really matters, and in today's world, as you, as you just mentioned, despite all of the advances of of the 21st century, the odds really are stacked against good decision making. You know, because of, you know, the the speed that would be operated, etcetera, etcetera, very smart people.

Nuala Walsh: 04:13

This judge a lot more, hear a lot less than before or not leads to, you know, unnecessary missed signals and, you know, scams and word warnings, seasonable thing that we all read about every day in the.

04:15

Here.

04:25

Happy.

Nuala Walsh: 04:28

Papers for me it was about.

Nuala Walsh: 04:29

Trying to give people a tool framework to think a little bit differently about these predictable errors that people make and just make it easier not to get it.

Sam Sivarajan: 04:38

Wrong. It's a great point. And as you were talking.

Sam Sivarajan: 04:41

It occurred to me that when you see, there are very successful people that make decisions and have good outcomes, there is a human tendency to assume that because you did X and the outcome is what you wanted, that one caused the other and there's a whole bunch of factors that could occur that are outside of your control.

Sam Sivarajan: 05:01

That might have led to the desired outcome, and we don't necessarily think about that. And and and the problem is as you say that we are live in a society where we celebrate success and we assume the success is a natural result. We ignore or sweep under the rug failures where I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned.

Sam Sivarajan: 05:22

On failures because it might not necessarily be that the decision making process was wrong, just factors outside of your control caused the outcome to be something other than you wanted.

Nuala Walsh: 05:33

You know, as you as you say that, Sam, I'm taking it three different biases all at the same time. I'm thinking the first one you said when you talk about.

Nuala Walsh: 05:41

You know, we assume that it's we assume that it's a good decision because it's a good outcome and of course that's outcome bias. It's like if you go through a traffic light, you know, is that a good decision or a bad decision? Well, if you reach your destination, you're going to say it's a great decision. But if you knock someone down, it was a bad decision. So it's the same in the sales team. You know, how do you get to your end result? How do you get those?

Nuala Walsh: 06:01

Sales, you know, you come in corners and collect safety measures and we know all about the ethical scandals that that, that many companies have have have entered and then you talk about we, you know, it's the false attribution effect, so successful people.

Sam Sivarajan: 06:07

Mm-hmm.

Nuala Walsh: 06:15

You know, think that, well, they they credit themselves with these really smart decisions rather than these external factors. Then of course, you're right into, you know, overconfidence. And I think there's a a real illusion of invulnerability when you, when you reach the top. So you know, you see, you see, it's whether it's, you know, politicians, CEOs of companies.

Nuala Walsh: 06:35

You know presidents.

Nuala Walsh: 06:36

They think that's because they've got so.

Nuala Walsh: 06:38

Far they'll never. They'll never fall right. There are so many examples of people who've just fallen off. Well, even though they've been incredibly successful for making her.

Nuala Walsh: 06:47

Errors out of their own doing, or other people have helped bring them down. It's a huge area and one that doesn't always get enough attention.

Nuala Walsh: 06:55

Business.

Sam Sivarajan: 06:57

Or politics to your point. And I think we see perhaps some poster Childs of like decision making.

Sam Sivarajan: 07:03

But.

Sam Sivarajan: 07:05

Is popular, perhaps globally, whether it's in business in all different types of realms that we don't know yet whether it is a good decision or.

Sam Sivarajan: 07:13

Bad decision, right?

Sam Sivarajan: 07:15

Correct. Can you share some of the key themes in your book that would resonate with the audience?

Nuala Walsh: 07:21

Yeah, well, I guess, I mean, I guess the clue is almost in the title. I mean, the book is called TuneIn and the theme, the main reason I've called TuneIn is because we are tuned.

Nuala Walsh: 07:31

And the point is that we tune out the most important voices when it really matters and tuning out the, the the most important voices is a huge source of misinformation. But when you learn from actually TuneIn, it's a source of opportunity. And by the right voices, you could talk about anything from, you know, the voice of conscience, which is obviously voice.

Nuala Walsh: 07:37

You know.

Nuala Walsh: 07:51

Voice of common sense, but too often people just listen to the voice of convenience or ego or comfort. There are many different voice or the familiarity of certain in Group.

Nuala Walsh: 08:02

And also, people listen to the first voice or the loudest voice, or the fastest voice, or the most senior voice rather than the right voice. So I've put I, you know, I've deliberately categorized as and said a number of these traps that are based around ego or, you know, lack of identity or, you know, desire for power or, you know, risk taking that play to all of these errors and lead you to.

Sam Sivarajan: 08:05

Hmm.

08:07

Or.

Nuala Walsh: 08:23

To listen to the wrong voices at the wrong time and and and unfortunately, there are just far too many.

Nuala Walsh: 08:28

Apples on people who just get that wrong, which I, you know, I'm sure I'm sure we'll come on to. But So what I wanted to do was point out that it's about the context. So the reason it the reason that this is a problem that is now getting worse in the world is because there are four factors that harm our decisions. And the first one is that we focus on what we see.

Nuala Walsh: 08:46

Rather than what we hear, and that's the visual world that we're in. So you know, that could be Instagram or first impressions. We live a speedy world we, you know, need to slow down but we don't. It's a fast-paced frantic lifestyle. It's data-driven of course and but and this excessive data is so overwhelming.

Nuala Walsh: 09:03

That people are struggling to see what's right and what isn't, and then you know, the fact that we live in a polarized world impacts how we think. And we think in a binary way things are right are wrong or good or bad etcetera.

Nuala Walsh: 09:17

So when we think in this binary way which it causes us to be narrower in our thinking and in business as you well know, people overweight the logical they don't think about psychology, psychology and they don't think about what psychological is, what some people say. So there are 200 biases and.

Nuala Walsh: 09:36

Of course you know.

Nuala Walsh: 09:37

To.

Nuala Walsh: 09:37

And all of them know all of them, but at least appreciating some of them is a step to.

Nuala Walsh: 09:42

Reinterpreting what you hear or what you don't hear, and avoiding this very predictable rush to misjudgment in this speedy world in which we live in. And I know a lot of my clients at the moment find that these traps are a predictable but when you would least pay attention to.

Nuala Walsh: 09:59

Them you have.

Nuala Walsh: 10:00

A far greater probability of avoiding this predictable.

10:02

Predator.

Sam Sivarajan: 10:03

Wow, I love everything that you just said. And as you were talking, there are two things that struck me. I think your emphasis on the call it the the auditory instead of the visual because we are in a very visual world. And I think what you're talking about strikes me. This is the Invisible Gorilla experiment where for our audience is not aware of it.

Sam Sivarajan: 10:23

This is an experiment where they had people watch a video of people passing around.

Sam Sivarajan: 10:29

Basketball and count the number of times that basketball was passed and the middle of the experiment. Somebody in a gorilla suit walked across the the court and beating its chest and the the real finding of this research was that over 50% of people.

10:31

That's more.

10:35

Around.

Sam Sivarajan: 10:46

Missed the gorilla because they were focused on counting the basketball as they turned it as inattentional.

Sam Sivarajan: 10:54

In this and I think what you're talking about, Nala is sort of an equivalent inattentional deafness that we're not paying attention to other signs for all of the things that you talked about, whether it's the loudest voice, whether it's somebody in your group or in Group or not. And I think that's a very important point that we need to kind of not just focus on the visual cues.

Sam Sivarajan: 11:16

With the auditory cues as well.

Sam Sivarajan: 11:18

The other thing that you said, which really really struck me is that the idea that this binary mindset that I think we all have.

Sam Sivarajan: 11:25

And this really?

Sam Sivarajan: 11:26

Resonates with me because particularly in business, but I would say even for for my audience, special advisors in the financial and wealth management space, too many clients and perhaps a lot of advisors.

Sam Sivarajan: 11:38

Have this very binary view of what success is, so if you have a target return of, for example, a 10% a year.

Sam Sivarajan: 11:45

Success is did you get 10% and failure is anything you know.

Sam Sivarajan: 11:49

Than 10%, but I would say most people that are saving for retirement are other things. Knowing that there's a host of forces at play. If you got 8% in a particular year, I mean that doesn't necessarily mean it's failure, it's just it. It's a different outcome than you expected and you have.

Sam Sivarajan: 12:06

To adapt your your plan slightly, but I think.

Sam Sivarajan: 12:09

We we faced a lot of danger and taking perhaps undue risk if we have a very narrow binary sense of success and our actions.

Nuala Walsh: 12:21

Absolutely right. And you are right, it is absolutely a case of inattentional deaf deafness and.

Nuala Walsh: 12:26

The whole the.

Nuala Walsh: 12:27

Whole book is about death spots and actual facts, so and every example cited is about when somebody either didn't listen or misinterpreted what they heard or failed to really hear what was actually being said. So sometimes people.

Nuala Walsh: 12:41

Because people are tuned out to what really matters.

Nuala Walsh: 12:44

For all of these different psychological reasons and deaf ear syndrome is actually something that it's a common psychological problem, and when organizations tune out, you know, reported or or or actual flaws or or problems, you know, that's what research researchers call that deaf ear syndrome. And it's everywhere from private equity firms to venture.

Nuala Walsh: 13:06

You know, to it doesn't matter what interest industry it is or even what you know where you are on the in the hierarchy, everybody suffers this, but not enough people I think really pay attention to it. And the argument is very much that you can't trust all you hear. And I've called. I've developed what I called the trilogy of error, which is really that you've got these psychological blind spots.

Nuala Walsh: 13:28

Death spots and don't spots because if you stay silent, by definition, other people can't hear what you've got to say. And that is one form of a dump spot. And again. So these are these are really, really important right here. Because so it goes back to the Daniel Cameron idea of he says, what you what you.

Nuala Walsh: 13:46

SC is not all there is and I say, well, what you hear is not all there is and what you see is not all there is. So the point that really the fundamental point is, and this is something your audience will appreciate, is the need to reinterpret what you hear and as as advisers to just take what the client says at face value really isn't going isn't going to cut it.

Nuala Walsh: 14:06

Because people don't always say what they mean, they don't always necessarily understand, you know, certain criteria or factors.

Nuala Walsh: 14:14

Or influences. So it really is.

Nuala Walsh: 14:15

Up to the adviser to reinterpret what people say so.

Nuala Walsh: 14:19

The book is.

Nuala Walsh: 14:19

Not about listening. It's absolutely about reinterpreting what people say, because listening is only.

Nuala Walsh: 14:24

First stage, if you know you knit them first, but then you either reinterpret or you don't and in many cases reinterpretation is a missing skill in in many many professions. Whether it's, you know, financial advice or whether it's a therapist, whether it's an FBI agent, whether it's a detective, all of these other professionals rely on.

Nuala Walsh: 14:44

You know, reinterpreting what people say for success and men gave us what they're paid for.

Nuala Walsh: 14:49

So that's a different point, but there who does determine their success in life as?

Sam Sivarajan: 14:53

Well, and and for clarification, well, when you say reinterpret, is it fair to say that you're talking about understanding what the client in this instance says and asking follow up clarification questions if necessary digging deeper.

Sam Sivarajan: 15:09

Reframing, restating what they've said so that you're avoiding any ambiguity or lack of clarity. Is that fair?

Nuala Walsh: 15:17

To say that is fair to say it is not taking information at face value, it is probing for inconsistencies, irregularities or listening to listening to to, to doubts or inconsistencies.

Nuala Walsh: 15:28

Absolutely right. It's just going down to a second or third level order of detail rather than just, you know taking taking it at that superficial level or you know or and asking those.

Nuala Walsh: 15:40

Those follow up questions.

Sam Sivarajan: 15:41

Yeah, it's interesting. As you say it. And I I can totally see this applying in almost all walks of life in daily life. I note more and more that people.

Sam Sivarajan: 15:51

Use terms and it could be common terms and I.

Sam Sivarajan: 15:54

There is an assumption that there is a shared understanding of what those terms mean, and it it struck me in many recent conversations that there actually isn't that shared understanding of what a term means. So when you're talking about not just listening passively, reinterpreting and and probing for inconsistency, part of it might be to make sure that you're actually.

Sam Sivarajan: 16:17

Using terms like risk or return or volatility or whatever in making sure that you have a shared understanding of what you mean.

Nuala Walsh: 16:25

By those terms, I think I think that I think that's a really good.

Nuala Walsh: 16:28

Point because in many cases people are blinded by euphemisms and acronyms and everything else, and there is that cursive expertise where you know financial advisors or any professional, assumes that the person knows what they're talking about and you will be getting your house really done and you get the builder in and they're talking a particular type of steel and they.

Sam Sivarajan: 16:47

Right.

Nuala Walsh: 16:48

You you know exactly what you're talking. You're thinking like, what are you talking about? And it happened to me on several occasions. I have no idea what this person's talking about, but they think because it's their everyday modus operandi. But of course, you know about the difference between Type 1 and Type 2 steel or a different type of brick or a different type of insulation. And of course, you don't.

16:52

Yeah.

Nuala Walsh: 17:08

So it is really important not and and the other problem is of course that you assume that people are experts. So in many cases you might be working with a lawyer or a doctor and you think, well, they know they know their industry in. In many cases that you do. But you know, it's certainly in my world I have. I have found, you know, to my detriment at times.

Nuala Walsh: 17:28

That in actual fact you should never take the expert, only always at their word that you do need to check. You do need to probe. You do need to sometimes get a second opinion.

Nuala Walsh: 17:38

And when it comes to certain things that depending on the the consequentiality.

Nuala Walsh: 17:42

Of the information and the advice that you're seeking. So there's almost glorification of experts and you know, I I think it's a mistake as well, particularly when other people's lives are at stake and.

Nuala Walsh: 17:54

You hold power and you know other people's, you know, lives and livelihoods are influenced by your.

18:00

Minorities.

Nuala Walsh: 18:01

I think there's a moral responsibility to get decisions right and to not just get it wrong and whoops, you know, sorry about that because people pay too high a price for your mistakes at times.

Sam Sivarajan: 18:12

Totally agree with that. I've always believed that there is training and experience required. I mean, expertise is something that is gained through training and experience etcetera. And there there is value in that. That being said, it doesn't remove the obligation of the.

Sam Sivarajan: 18:29

Investor the patient or what have you. The voters for that matter, to be empowered and to feel that, you know, they also have a vested interest in making sure that that they're they're informed and that they're asking questions and that they're challenging in in the right way, etcetera. They're not. Just accept what whatever an expert says because they're the ones that.

Sam Sivarajan: 18:50

Have to live with the.

Sam Sivarajan: 18:50

Consequences.

Sam Sivarajan: 18:51

Now, moving back to the space of financial advice. As we know, financial advisors as experts help clients navigate.

Sam Sivarajan: 19:00

Complex financial choices daily, what would you say are the most calming decision? Call it death spots you see in investors and what strategies do you think that advisors might be able to use to help clients overcome?

Nuala Walsh: 19:14

Them. Yeah, I I think that's actually a huge question, Sam. And I'll tell you why because the answer.

Nuala Walsh: 19:19

Is too big.

Nuala Walsh: 19:20

There are too many of them, which is, which is a bit of a problem, which is I guess, which is why I tried to categorize these problems into the types of traps. So maybe if you take it in two parts of.

Nuala Walsh: 19:29

The perfect what type of what type of traps could they fall into and then be specifically within that? Are there any that are more maybe more common than others? And So what I tried to do was, as I said, there were.

Nuala Walsh: 19:42

There were 200.

Nuala Walsh: 19:42

Biases. Yeah. And what I tried to do was synchronize systematize 75 of those into a framework.

Nuala Walsh: 19:50

You know that I now that I called the perimeters trance because there are 10 of them and that's an harmonic that that symbolizes. You know how we think in a bounded.

Nuala Walsh: 20:00

Manner or, you know, or narrowly we think so. Each of these traps is 6 or seven of these predictable biases that advisors might be aware of. And each of those, of course, is a source of misinformation. So everybody just run through them really quickly. So P is for the power based traps, and that's when you're involved, when when you're pursuing power or authority or status.

Nuala Walsh: 20:20

Or recognition, or you're just following the advice of of as we were.

Nuala Walsh: 20:23

Talking about or.

Nuala Walsh: 20:24

Authorities or experts. Then you've got ego based tracks, so I.

Nuala Walsh: 20:28

Think we can all, probably.

Nuala Walsh: 20:29

Late to refusal to consider any alternative view because of your own self threatens. You have risk based traps which are huge in this space and maybe we can touch on some of those in emission and that it does reflect the the clients appetite for sensation seeking and you know their intolerance of doubt or uncertainty but that that that's all about the probability neglect.

Nuala Walsh: 20:49

And so many others anchoring, etcetera. Then you've identified traps and.

Nuala Walsh: 20:54

Many clients you know, wealthy clients, it's all about, you know, their their identity and their craving to in this case not just curate an image but to sustain and oppress others. So you have an awful lot in that area. Memory based traps are where clients don't necessarily remember, you know, you might say they really remember their failures, you know, their investment.

21:02

Situation.

Nuala Walsh: 21:14

Leaders. But there is the misinformation effect.

Nuala Walsh: 21:17

There is, you know, the forgetting curve and a lot of and the power of suggestion that impact people's decisions there. Ethics based traps are probably self-evident and unique of the rogue traders and the scammers here. The time based traps, the temporal traps are huge and these involve living.

21:27

M.

Nuala Walsh: 21:32

In the past, the present or the future, and this is about status quo bias or not thinking ahead, and we know the problems that people have from an investing perspective or retirement planning perspective here. Then he is for the emotion based traps. Again 27 different emotions pick the one you know regret, wishful thinking, envy, anger you green.

Nuala Walsh: 21:53

When it comes to investing than or for relationship tracks, not crowd relationships, and this is all about what your peers have and investing, it's the same thing. It's the herding mentality. It's the bandwagon effect. It's social comparison. You know, how many yachts do you have? How many you know private jets. Does someone else have? Never mind.

Nuala Walsh: 22:12

Can you just live within your means or you know you've got a a cost of living crisis in in many countries now? So you've got all.

Nuala Walsh: 22:20

Of these different parameters, there and.

Nuala Walsh: 22:22

Then the final one.

Nuala Walsh: 22:23

Is are the story based traps and this is about how easy an investor or an advisor how willing they are to accept a narrative of fact without that analysis. And that can be, you know, from conspiracy theories to campaigns to this stock is going to be, you know, the stock of the future and then you, you know you get, you get the the the bull run on that.

Nuala Walsh: 22:43

So all of these traps come together and as I say, they are all interrelated. There is a force multiplier effect.

22:50

Also.

Nuala Walsh: 22:52

So it's almost too easy to say, well, which which ones might they might the advisors fall into because, yeah, the answer is that.

Nuala Walsh: 23:00

The advisors fall into all of them, just like their clients do, but some of these, but the ones that I think that that maybe people can think about or look at maybe a little bit more closely or the the more obvious ones for example over confidence I think is really an easy one to grasp. But I think we all know what that one is, but it is a real problem. It is a real problem in this.

Nuala Walsh: 23:20

The other one is like status quo bias. People don't want to change people like things as they are, so I've always invested. You know, this amount and people are unwilling to change their asset allocation strategies because they fear the future or you have this the the herding mentality, which is absolutely huge as as you know there are decision rules that people can put in place, but again the.

Nuala Walsh: 23:41

The question.

Nuala Walsh: 23:42

Are we talking about the advisor or are we talking about the investor because the advisor can put in different wealth of different strategies for the investor, which I'm sure they do, but the actual advisor themselves? It's like anyone in any organization. How liable are they to fall into any of those traps? And the answer is.

Nuala Walsh: 24:01

They're liable to fall into each one of those, and I for me, if I was an investor looking for an advisor, I would be looking for an advisor that had a an advanced behavioral skill set. So there are sometimes the understanding of human behavior can be just too superficial until they understand the psyche.

Nuala Walsh: 24:20

Of their clients and you know, I'm sure many do or try to at least I think. I think that they are putting themselves at risk and also putting their clients.

Nuala Walsh: 24:27

At risk.

Sam Sivarajan: 24:28

Yeah.

Sam Sivarajan: 24:28

Love that framework and I I couldn't agree with you more that these set of traps are trying to isolate. One of them is is futile because they're all probably operating simultaneously.

Sam Sivarajan: 24:40

And not just for advisors and clients.

Sam Sivarajan: 24:42

I think you've seen the research that says that professionals are as susceptible to behavioral biases are as lay people. There's the the famous study, of course, in in this space that professional fund managers, if you ask them, 90% of them believe that they're better than average, which we know is a statistical impossibility.

Sam Sivarajan: 25:02

So it's not that having professional training makes you less susceptible to biases or trap.

Sam Sivarajan: 25:09

I think your advice is a good one. That is clients or as investors probably should be looking for somebody who's got an awareness of the biases that traps and the fact that there isn't this hubris that they're somehow immune to it themselves, right, that they that they're putting processes, safeguards, awareness.

Sam Sivarajan: 25:29

So.

Sam Sivarajan: 25:29

Our employees to to limit the impact of these traps, not just on clients but on themselves.

Nuala Walsh: 25:35

I think that's right. And and it goes back to where we started. When people are successful and many fund managers are successful until they aren't. And that's the problem. It's a bit late when you're falling off the wagon.

Nuala Walsh: 25:45

And you know.

Nuala Walsh: 25:45

You you've underperformed, but you can you can mitigate these and it's not only.

Nuala Walsh: 25:51

By putting in technological safeguards. But it's it's it's seals around. I mean it's very difficult. You know, if you are underperforming for example, and your peer performs.

Nuala Walsh: 26:01

And I saw this a lot when I was working in investments the the the underperforming fund managers really, really suffer and they take it a lot worse. So to get their confidence back up again to do well for their clients can be very, very difficult. So that's a combination of ego bias, but it's also identity. I mean, so all of those traps, the identity traps.

Nuala Walsh: 26:22

Come into play there hugely and there's a little bit also maybe about the relationship traps in terms of this gives us social comparison and we know that you know comparison is the thief of joy. And in that world you really do only compare yourself to your peers because it's so well rewarded as well. So you know they're they