Sam Sivarajan (: 00:01

Hi everyone. I'm your host, Sam Sivarajan. Welcome to today's episode of the Future Ready Advisor. Today, I'm here with Ryan Donovan, the founder of online retirement platform, retirement .ca. Ryan, welcome to the show.

Ryan (: 00:19

Thank you for the introduction, Sam. It's a pleasure to speak again. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Sam Sivarajan (: 00:24

I'm looking forward to our chat. Let me quickly introduce you to our audience. Ryan is the founder and CEO of Retirement .ca, a platform that offers resources for the non -financial aspects of retirement. With a background in financial services, Ryan created Retirement to help individuals navigate the lifestyle and psychological challenges of retirement. Now, I think this is a timely topic, Ryan, and I'm looking forward to diving in.

But before we do, maybe you can tell us a little bit about yourself. You started your career as a product manager before founding retirement .ca. Can you talk a little bit about some of the key moments that led you to shift your focus towards retirement planning, particularly the non -financial aspects?

Ryan (: 01:12

Yeah, for sure. So as a product manager and whenever you're building anything for that matter, I'd say the first thing to look at is fulfilling needs and solving problems. And having had the fortune of working a brief stint in the financial services industry, I had the pleasure of working alongside some very talented advisors. And one recurring theme that we discuss time and time again after meetings was seeing that retired or retiring clients sometimes didn't even want to talk about their finances. And we sort of began to...

Excuse me, recognize this pattern that once people's finances were at least headed in the right direction, the scope of the conversations and the main concerns of clients shifted to things like, where am going to travel? I'm going to stay busy with the grandkids. What happens when I lose my insurance coverage from work? And sometimes it'd go a whole meetings without even discussing their portfolio. So it became pretty apparent that this sort of undue burden falls on financial advisors to also act as their clients, retirement advisors.

I think of lot of advisors would be the first ones to admit that they're not really interested or even equipped to be that authority on the wider retirement topics. So there was certainly a gap in the market for a resource to answer these sorts of questions.

Sam Sivarajan (: 02:29

A more philosophical question. think that You made the point that a lot of financial advisors don't feel that they're equipped to answer these types of questions. I guess at a more fundamental level, why is retiring now different than it was 50 years ago? And why do you think that we need to approach it differently or why advisors might want to think about?

equipping themselves with tools or processes to think a little bit differently about retirement.

Ryan (: 03:01

Definitely. So, I mean, for one, people are living longer. I mean, the industry paradigm now is that people live about 8 ,000 days in retirement or 22 years. I mean, there's more time to think about the things you want to do, achieve and sort of see in this period. And especially as people are living longer, it's also extending sort of their healthier years. So it's giving more possible opportunities to accomplish all these things and setting yourself up financially, not only.

to extend and cover this entire time, but also to fund the things you want to do and sort of enjoy the fruits of your hard labor. And then also paired with just sort of the possible opportunities because of the tech that's really supporting it and the tech that the industry's headed towards.

Sam Sivarajan (: 03:45

I wonder how much do you think that we are now, as in a lot of other aspects of our life, that we're sort of rethinking what it means to be a parent, for example, or what it means to be a member of society. I think maybe if I can continue to be philosophical, that's evolved that thinking over the last, call it 50, 60 years. And do you think that's also...

we see that in the retirement space that we're not accepting retirement as this definition that we would have had in the past where, you you collect your gold watch, you ride off into the sunset and, you're playing golf five days a week, you know, for the rest of your life. Is that, I mean, was that ever a kind of a legitimate paradigm? And is that any longer a paradigm? What do you think?

Ryan (: 04:42

Well, I think, like you said, the golf five days a week or sipping pina coladas on the beach, like I think that's what people strive for and why they work so hard. So that's a potential opportunity. But I mean, we're pretty funny creatures. Like we demand change. We demand meaning and purpose. And I think that once people actually reach that stage, and especially now that they're experiencing it for longer, that conversation to what am I going to do to fill this time other than golf five times a day? Cause there's a lot more hours left in the day other than a four hour round.

really comes into question. And I think that now just being connected through all forms of communication and now that the conversation is just sort of not only broader, but more instant. I think we're seeing that people are thinking the same thing. So I think maybe just because in the past people were kind of dealing with this problem by themselves, it wasn't really an open conversation, but luckily nowadays I'd say.

Sam Sivarajan (: 05:35

Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. And I think tools like retirement .ca allows that kind of conversation or that sense of community to foster so that people can have this conversation, you know, not quietly in a corner somewhere, but more openly to kind of bring this, some of these challenges, some of these questions, some of those things that I think we might've been feeling a little bit.

odd to kind of speak up. Like this is supposed to be what I've worked my whole life for. Like why am I feeling unfulfilled or unhappy? You know, I think places like retirement .ca that you've created, think, you know, helps solve that problem. So, I mean, I think presumably that's one of the reasons why I think the impetus for setting it up.

Ryan (: 06:24

Yeah, definitely. And I think speaking to sort of people coming together to discuss that, I mean, for us, we're looking everywhere across the internet to see where people are discussing these things and seeing, because that's for us to like, we don't want to be the only resource out there. We want to lead people towards other resources that maybe we don't offer or people who are already further along in the chase than us. I mean, things like Facebook groups, there's Facebook groups for retiring Canadians where people ask questions. And I mean, sometimes they're not

the most sound answers, but at least people are there for communication. I think providing platforms where there's a little bit more structured conversation or maybe a little bit more authoritative answers, I think is really important. So that's certainly where we want to head in the direction with retirement as well. And not to get off topic, but just in terms of the number of people who this is affecting, I mean, we're just kind of at the start of the wave of it.

The silver surfer movement as it's neatly dubbed. mean, in Canada alone, there's going to be 8 ,000 people retiring every single week for the next 15 years. And I mean, only 60 % of them are going to know their retirement date one year in advance. And a third of them will even delay their retirement just because they don't have a plan in place. So, I mean, it's a pretty pressing issue. And I mean, the faster we can at least start carving away at addressing it, I think the more people is really going to help.

Sam Sivarajan (: 07:44

I think those are some really eye -opening statistics you've just shared. And I want to come on to the concept of hub and community a bit more in a second. But I want to touch on the fact that in retirement, at least the way that we have the conversation in Canada to date has been a focus on financial readiness for the most part. But your platform emphasizes really the non -financial elements, like your lifestyle, your social network, your psychological readiness.

How have you seen the retirement planning industry, I think, evolve in addressing those non -financial aspects? And what more is there to do than that you're hoping to solve, I think, with your platform?

Ryan (: 08:25

Yeah, definitely. Well, going back to the start of sort of the inception of retirement, we luckily had a little bit of a longer runway to really assess where the market was, see existing players, what they were doing, which kind of helped us assess what needs to fill and what gaps to fill. But even three years ago, the larger investment firms were providing training and documentation for their advisors on how to better service retiring clients. And I remember attending an online webinar by McKenzie that covered this topic exactly.

touching on catering to non -financial needs and hierarchical needs, identifying stressors that clients may be facing. So I think that's really encouraging, especially to see then and where sort of the big players are moving, but certainly it's things like ourselves and other people in the industry who can really kind of spearhead at least being a little bit more agile and pushing that along. And then with the big banks, you can start to see the language in their advertising and their communications online.

shift from that more just dollars and cents conversation to the more lifestyle and aspirational branding. And whether that be because it's sort of just to get away as a competitive advantage or for an altruistic broadening of the retirement conversation, I think it's really good either way.

Sam Sivarajan (: 09:39

Yeah, I totally agree. I think that there needs to be this broader conversation. I think if we're talking about advisors that are looking to solve the problem, I think the idea of being a one trick pony that you are only solving, picking the right portfolio for retirement. It seems to me that the job of a truly holistic advisor that is looking to serve the clients doesn't stop when

the day that they've retired, the client retires and they're about to start drawing down their portfolio. I think that there has to be a preparation of that client for the non -financial aspects of it. Because I think it's a critical component, right? If you don't know, if you aren't clear as a pre -retiree thinking through what you're going to do with your time, how you're going to replace your social network that you had from work,

you know, how you're going to spend the 40 hours, how you're going to fill that 40 hours that you've had, that work took up. I think you don't really know how much money that you're going to need and how you're going to be spending it, right? So I think in order to do even that financial planning or portfolio setup and planning that a financial advisor's typical responsibilities include, I think without properly

planning and preparing the client for retirement. think it's hard to estimate what might be that financial requirement.

Ryan (: 11:10

No, you're absolutely right. And I think, I mean, it's a true testament to where this industry is and the level of trust and comfort that clients have with their advisors. I mean, whether people are seeing them as sort of holistic retirement advisors currently, just because they're able to converse with them about other wider topics and discussions. But I mean, now we're seeing a movement towards actual certified retirement advisors and people can have these discussions. So I mean, it's probably just the

the impetus of like starting this conversation, but I'm sure it's going to be a much bigger industry. And I think another thing too is, is this sort of openness of the generation to even therapy or, or a psychologist or something like that. Like you said, mean, 40 hours a week is thousands of hours a year. And not only in the year, but like 22 years, if that is a filling all that time. And especially as your

Sam Sivarajan (: 12:03

Mm

Ryan (: 12:08

needs change as your physical requirements change and stuff like that, starting to pick up new hobbies and stuff to fill that time. That's not always what you were able to do before. But yeah, just going back to that one piece too on sort of that lifestyle planning, how it relates to financial planning. I think one thing that advisors shouldn't necessarily shy away from is also putting their clients in touch with resources or online tools. Even things like retirement planners or budget planning things, because I think when people

can really start playing around with this trip is gonna cost this much. This, my new bike for cycling is gonna cost this much. And they can really start to envision their retirement dreams in terms of dollars and how that plays out too. I think that really helps to imagine how you're gonna spend your time as well.

Sam Sivarajan (: 12:56

I think that's important. And you touched on something that I want to dig into a little bit deeper. I think The idea that you're retiring for and planning for retirement for 22 years, I almost want to have people think like,

Go back 22 years in your own lives and is the way that you lived those last 22 years, has it been the same? Has your habits been the same? Has your hobbies been the same? Have the people that you've hung out with been the same? And if it hasn't, which I suspect for most people it has not, there's almost a danger in sitting there thinking we're going to go into retirement and we've got the static plan that we're going to be there for the next 22 years.

One thing I've heard and I quite like this is that people think of retirement as one continuous phase when really it should be thought of at the very least as three different phases. There's the go -go years, the slow -go years and the no -go years, right? And I think that is a very call it, know, turn a phrase way of putting that your physical and your

your physical and your mental interests are going to change and your abilities are going to change over that period of retirement. And to sit there and think that what you do on your day one of your retirement is going to continue to day, you know, 5 ,000 of your retirement is I think probably a disservice, I would say to the clients to think that way. And perhaps one of the...

the low hanging fruits that an advisor can do to help clients prepare for that retirement is to get them to think along these lines that at the very least entertain the possibility that your retirement isn't going to look the same from beginning to end.

Ryan (: 14:52

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And I think that, I mean, it's kind of more philosophical as well, but goal -based investing is very important in the sense of helping decide those milestones of what you want to accomplish. I mean, our site as well covers a bunch of different topics and we have assessments and sort of tools for content on a bunch of different things, but going back to travel, like go -go, slow -go and no -go years.

preparing your finances to get you ready for a trip to Southeast Asia at the start of your retirement when you have a little bit more vigor and a little bit more just pep in your stuff. Like saving for that is gonna mean that you can do a little bit more closer to home stuff later. touching on these sort of life milestones in terms of your health and wellness too is important in financial planning. certainly an open conversation between advisors and clients as well in that sense.

Sam Sivarajan (: 15:45

Your hub, as you call it, includes a directory of retirement related services. And I think you talked a little bit before about having a network and a community and having that conversation. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of building that network of diverse professionals that I think one will need to address the whole gamut of retirement and what role you want to play in that conversation or that network?

Ryan (: 16:14

Yeah, absolutely. So I think one thing right off the bat, like you mentioned, is that in our product too, we're also trying to open people's eyes to the number and types of professionals who are out there to help with their planning. So it's not just the financial advisors or estate lawyers who people kind of quickly associate with who the professionals are going to be in their corner. But it's things all the way from like golf instructors to therapists, like we mentioned, to travel agents. I think just

the number of people you can have in your corner to really help ease through this. And I mean, our website really does preach and promote sort of DIY planning where you can, just so you're staying up to date in the conversation. But one thing that we quickly recognize right away is that there's professionals out there for a reason. It can really sort of alleviate stress and also really show our plans to have people in your corner, like I keep saying, but.

I think the problem with something like Google, where if someone just goes in and searches best financial advisors near me, for example, mean, one, you're going to get inundated with thousands of ads of different products that you weren't even looking for. And it's really hard to vet on something like that, especially for someone who's playing such an important role in your planning. And I mean, with other online directories like Yellow Pages or things like that, I mean, all these companies are being put alongside businesses that have no place being in the retirement conversation.

So we just wanted to create a sort of a centralized and really trusted source where retirees can find people by hearing from people directly in their shoes, rated and reviewed by retirees. And just, again, very easy to use to find those professionals either near them or people who can service them virtually, who can really help with that planning.

Sam Sivarajan (: 17:52

your point. think this idea of do it yourself. I've always believed that you needed an informed and engaged client. think that I think too many people abdicate responsibility for things that they need to have, you know,

the ultimate responsibility for it, because you live with it. Whether that's how well your portfolio does or how well your life insurance policy is working or your preparement for retirement. Yes, I think there are professionals and we can and should rely on them. But we still have a role as consumers to kind of make sure that we are understanding each of the different elements of our plan, how they work together.

It doesn't have to be the mechanics. I don't have to be a mechanic to fix my car. I need to understand that I have my brakes need to be checked or that my tires need to be changed. That's having the same level of, think, do it yourselfness, together with that, the compliment that a professional provides in the automotive sense that I think you're advocating in the retirement planning sense.

Ryan (: 19:01

Absolutely. And like we're saying, we don't need a professional for everything necessarily. If you feel really confident in your use of kayak or Airbnb or something like that, and you can plan really awesome trips, there's no need to have a professional. I think people do have to admit that, like we said, professionals are out there for a reason and they can really, really help. And especially with our sort of network of professionals too, it ranges from affordability to convenience to all this stuff. So there's professionals out there for every single need as well.

Sam Sivarajan (: 19:32

So for financial advisors who understand this change and are looking to support their clients beyond the call it the financial aspects of retirement, what are some of the practical steps that you can suggest that they can take to integrate this more lifestyle and psychological planning into their services?

Ryan (: 19:52

Definitely. For one, I'd say staying up to date and informed with the conversations ranging from all these different topics. I think it really helps because ultimately their clients are going to bring up these discussions whether they like it or not. So just staying informed to be able to really speak on the subject is important, but also being able to have resources at the tip of your fingers to be able to recommend for, I read this really great.

estate planning piece that I think you should check out based on your specific needs or even having in -house like checklists or assessments. People kind of use them as, as referral tools or things to draw clients in, like click to download this PDF for your financial checklist, but having in -house tools doesn't take too long or too hard, they go a long way for clients so that they can really feel assessed. And I think another final piece too on this sort of education.

is hosting sort of learning -based events and inviting professionals from other fields. And just like we're doing here, really kind of discuss how their fields relate, especially from the financial to the retirement holistically. So I think just staying, keeping their clients as informed and educated as possible while staying informed themselves goes a long way.

Sam Sivarajan (: 20:48

Mm.

That makes total sense. Now, retirement .ca blends, I would say, digital technology with the offline analog retirement planning that I think is critical, that human touch that is still very critical. How do you see digital tools transforming the way retirement advice is delivered? think particularly in enhancing that human element that we have of advisory services, particularly exploring some of these

what we were doing, the philosophical elements of these questions, which I think is a little bit maybe perhaps hard to do on the digital side of things.

Ryan (: 21:46

For sure. Yeah, the human element point is so important because I mean, robo -advisors, robo -whatever, robo -this, really having that human element not only solidifies the trust, but it really can help cater to individual needs. Like everyone's plans are different and then can't have a cookie cutter thing that just provides the same service to everyone. But one thing that we saw in recent years is the ability to service clients virtually.

in person for meetings since: 2020

to be able to answer these questions or at least topics and put them in the right direction with resources. Again, I know it sounds counterintuitive, but the ability, what that AI has just in terms of like answering what are the CPP payment dates this year or different things like that at a click of a button, mean, faster than someone getting on phone with your advisor can do. So really having structured and...

authorized AI integration, not only on sites like ours, but I mean, big bank integrations and things like that, I think goes a long way while still preserving some of that sort of AI or that human centric feeling as well.

Sam Sivarajan (: 23:22

Now, when we chatted before, Ryan, you mentioned this concept of disenchantment valley that I really like that, you know, that some retirees experience after the so -called honeymoon phase of retirement. How do you think financial advisors can help their clients be prepared for that from a mindset perspective, but also to navigate this challenging transition?

Ryan (: 23:46

Definitely. think just discussing the topic at whole of the sort disenchantment valley, seeing firsthand friends, parents go through it, my mom especially, like for people who especially are decision makers in their careers and are in charge of doing things day to day. And once all that sort of stops and you have those 40 hours a week, I think it's really important to prepare ahead for something like that. I think this is where that sort of goal -based investing in terms of what advisors can do.

because not only are they helping ensure that you're financially supported to do those things, it really opens up the conversation or at least even gets the client starting to think about those things you want to do in retirement. So if you're doing that two, five years out ahead of a client's retirement date, them thinking like, yeah, I had thought that I'm going to pick up tennis or I'm going to do a bicycle trip in the Alps or something like that. At least they have something to look forward to and to start

preparing off of as opposed to really just starting those conversations once that sort of melancholy hits of, yeah, I played golf this morning, what am I gonna do afternoon?

Sam Sivarajan (: 24:55

think that's such an important concept and I think it's not enough attention is not paid to it. I think if you're a financial advisor that has had an executive as a client or an entrepreneur as a client, these are people that have worked 20, 30, 40 hours a week for 30, 40, 50 hours of years, know that.

you know, they are achievement oriented. They've had a sense of purpose. They have had a sense of accomplishment. They've been recognized, rewarded, a sense of purpose, et cetera. And I think to your point about focusing on the non -financial elements, I think...

I think we open ourselves up as advisors and as clients. I think we open ourselves up to the danger that we are one dimensional then in retirement, right? Like, you we've had all of these other facets of our life that gave us purpose, that gave us a sense of achievement, et cetera. And if we're not thinking about how we're going to replace that.

in retirement, think you're leading to this melancholy that you talked about or this disenchantment valley. And I think the financial element is only one component, but we need to recognize and I think advisors need to help clients recognize that, you know, there's a

whole bunch of other things that they're getting from their work or from their involvement in the community or in their involvement in sports that you perhaps they're not giving enough stock to and that they will need to think about how that either continues or is replaced in their retirement.

Ryan (: 26:32

Definitely. And I think that's why we're sort of seeing this rise in sort of secondary careers as well. I mean, in this day and age, especially having retirement be longer for a lot of people, it helps provide some additional income and supportive income. But for the other people, like joining boards of directors or mentorship or things like that, even in just as sort of a three to five year window after retiring to sort of ease out of that working life, I think that conversation should be opened up further as well. I think a lot of people's initial gut feeling is

I'm done. I'm walking away from the office, all of this, but I mean, that hits pretty quickly. realizing that you certainly need that purpose that you were mentioning.

Sam Sivarajan (: 27:09

So what trends do you foresee in retirement planning? I think you talked about the idea that we're getting certifications for being a retirement coach, a retirement advisor. So the industry, think, is understanding that there is a gap that needs to be filled with platforms like yours that are aiming to try to help fill it. What other trends do you see coming up in the coming years in this area?

Ryan (: 27:36

Yes, certainly. I think early on, I mean, touching back on like you said of the certified retirement planners, even if someone doesn't necessarily have someone like that, it's at least being open to the conversation. think not that it's a stigma or a faux pas or whatever, but I think the three places that people kind of go to for their advice now is Google, their financial advisors, or their friends and family going through that. And if you don't have any friends and family going through that,

Being open to discussing things online, like we keep mentioning these sort of open communications online, I think there's a huge gap beyond sort of the Facebook groups and things like that for people to really come together and connect to discuss about going to these things. And it doesn't have to be therapeutic. It doesn't have to be anything like that, but just a space where people can, like -minded people can discuss what they're going through at that time. I'd say the ability for on the go planning. I mean,

For us, we spent a long time really sort of ensuring that our platform is the same experience on desktop, it is on mobile and things like that. But having product integration where people can follow it with them, they don't have to be tied to their pen and paper at home, especially for their planning. I think that's really important as well. But in terms of sort of a larger topic, just opening up the conversation to things like governments, to things like large media outlets, to really start having

this conversation about holistic planning, as opposed to only having to speak about it with your financial advisor if they're sort of hip to it.

Sam Sivarajan (: 29:13

Makes sense. So can you talk a little bit, Ryan, about what's next for retirement .ca? What's the next year to two years look like? What's your product roadmap or vision for this platform?

Ryan (: 29:25

Definitely. So for us now, we're really focusing on that product you mentioned of sort of building this network of retirement service professionals. So just making it as easily acceptable to our user base to find those people who they're looking for. So for sort of a user journey for someone who's coming on our platform, we'll walk them through sort of assessments, identifying areas where they can really see improvement.

and put them in contact with either DIY or educational resources they can do it themselves. Or if they're really feeling like they need that professional assistant, that's sort of the next step for us ensuring that without even having to lead the platform or going through that whole song and dance with Google is getting them in touch with them right away. So it's been really fantastic being able to test out the product with offices around Toronto, but then really expanding that to wider markets across Canada.

Sam Sivarajan (: 29:51

Mm

Ryan (: 30:18

And then another piece too, that we're always kind of playing around in the background, as I mentioned, is sort of AI integration to be able to, I mean, we have a chat bot who we get in touch with retirees every day, just who have questions, but to make that sort of a 24 seven service to answer quick questions, not deep philosophical ones necessarily, or ones relating to people's finances. But I think that'd be a really good tool just to make, again, accessibility is the number one goal for us too.

Sam Sivarajan (: 30:44

That's great. Good luck to you, Ryan. I think this is a gap, as you rightly identified. I think it is a pressing need for Canadians and it's nice that there's another avenue for them to answer questions that I think must be burning in the back of their mind. We are coming to the end of our podcast. So I have a few final rapid fire questions for you that I ask all of my guests. So number one.

Professionally, what is the most important lesson you have learned over the years?

Ryan (: 31:18

I'd say don't be afraid to put yourself out there. I think you'll find that there's a lot more people who are willing and wanting to help than people who aren't. And retirement wouldn't be where it is today without the people who've provided the sort of insight, support and guidance along the way.

Sam Sivarajan (: 31:34

Awesome. I couldn't agree with you more. think this is, it's not a solo battle or a solo journey in any case. You just have to ask for help and be willing to accept it, I would say. And that goes not just for you, but I would say for clients looking for retirement, et cetera, know who they should ask and when they should ask for help. Number two, what is one practical tip you would offer listeners keen on applying your insights?

Ryan (: 32:02

It might sound a bit odd coming from someone who's so far away from retirement, but I just say start planning. The earlier, the better and the easier it'll become. Whether you're like five or even 10 years out from retirement, there's tangible tasks and even thought exercises that you can be doing to cross off your list. And not only will you get them out of the way earlier, but it'll help prepare things in the future for sort of more detailed scenarios if you've already thought of them before.

Sam Sivarajan (: 32:29

Look, I couldn't agree with you more. I think this idea of planning or the way I would frame it is asking yourself questions. I think you can never start too early on it because I think the really good questions are ones that you don't have an answer for and you don't really need it right away. But I think you have to have that.

willingness to have that discomfort of that question sitting there, et cetera. And it will take you time to figure out what the answer is. And most likely, will probably change three times between when you first asked it and when you have to actually answer it for yourself. So I think this avoids, or at least minimizes the risk that you pointed out earlier of this disenchantment valley, finding yourself in the middle of it three years after retirement.

Ryan, this has been a great conversation on a very important topic. If our listeners want to find out more about you or retirement .ca, where do they go?

Ryan (: 33:33

Yeah, that's exactly it. Retirement .ca, retire, -I -N -T .ca. And even if you don't want to sign up, we have newsletters that go a couple times a week just in terms of staying educated on the topic. And yeah, we're looking really forward to helping service more Canadians as we expand.

Sam Sivarajan (: 33:51

Ryan, awesome. Thank you for joining us today on the Future Ready Advisor.

Ryan (: 33:56

Thank you, Sam.