Breaking Through Growth Barriers and Building Scalable Systems with Matt Hicken

Sam Sivarajan: 00:01

Hi everyone. I'm your host, Sam Sivarajan. Welcome to today's episode of the Future Ready Advisor. Today I'm joined by Matt Hicken, Senior Vice President at Bill Good Marketing. For over two decades, Matt has worked with financial advisors across North America, helping them break through the growth plateaus that every advisor eventually hits. Whether that's trying to crack their first $10 million, get unstuck at a hundred million or scale beyond a hundred to one billion in AUM. Matt brings a blend of strategy and lived experience. Before joining Bill Good, he spent nearly 14 years as a licensed advisor, where he helped grow one advisory practice from 25 million to over $550 million in assets under management. Today, he uses that frontline experience, along with the proven systems and best practices Bill Good marketing has refined since the 1970s, to coach advisory teams through the complex challenges of scaling and succession. Matt, welcome to the show.

Matt Hicken: 01:05

Yeah, thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Sam Sivarajan: 01:07

Delighted to have you. So Matt, let's kick off with maybe you can share a bit of your story. You've been, as I said in the intro, you've been both in the trenches as an advisor and now work closely with many advisory teams. What was your own journey to wealth management and how did that evolve into the work you now do?

Matt Hicken: 01:27

Yeah, that's a great question. So to me, I'm one of those weird kids at the age of 14 that decided I wanted to be a consultant, which is not usually the top job that 14 year olds are thinking about. But I read a book as I was doing a book report for something for school and I have no idea why I chose this book. And it was about a business consultant and just how he went about and approached things. And I thought, you know what, that sounds absolutely fascinating to me. In fact, I ask a question often when I'm doing interviews and stuff about, would you say you're more of a puzzle person or more of a map person? And I'm more of a puzzle person in that I see the whole picture and I'm looking for all the pieces to come in so that it turns into that end result. So I started, I found Bill Good when I was in my early 20s and I got hired on, thankfully made it through the really tough time of 2001 recession time period and just kind of hung on and taught and coached advisors for about five years, traveling all over the country doing that. And then my wife and I wanted to move to the East coast. And so we moved out there. One of my favorite advisor clients was out there. So I started working with him. And as you said, we went through a lot, a lot of different things, a firm change, adjusting to a fee-based business. So a lot of different aspects. And in that change, we went from 25 million in assets under management to over the 550 million. The whole time I was there though, I looked at it a little bit differently than I think most do. And I think this is what really helped me kind of put together a lot of the systems and processes that we put together. And that was that I still looked at myself as a consultant, even though I was coming in every day and working with Rob and the team. It was still, I had to consult, which was awkward when I was sitting down with him and consulting him on what my pay should be and telling him, hey, you need to slow down how much you're paying me. Cause as a business, that's not a good route to go. It's too much. But it was just, it's just how I've always viewed it. And then in 2020 with some family issues and things and with all my family, my wife's family here in Utah, we moved back and thankfully Bill let me come back. And so since 2020, I've been again, traveling around the country, working with advisors throughout North America. It's a ton of fun.

Sam Sivarajan: 04:05

That's awesome. And I think it's a really nice characterization you put about the consulting even in the practice that you were in. It is a different characterization, but to me it's one that makes sense. I mean, to some extent we're all consulting. As an advisor, you're consulting your client, right? You're providing them solutions. You're trying to diagnose the problem. You're providing solutions. It just so happens that most of them are, you know, financial solutions or financial products, but there's still a problem solving element to it, isn't there?

Matt Hicken: 04:22

Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Sam Sivarajan: 04:38

Now, you've helped advisors scale through some major growth milestones from everything from $10 million to even a billion dollars of AUM. Can you identify or discuss some of the most common barriers or patterns you've seen at each stage and what separates the teams that can break through from that plateau?

Matt Hicken: 05:02

Yeah, so this is my passion. So I love this question because to me, one of the fascinating things is whenever I visit a team or I'm talking to a team and I'm trying to put together that puzzle, I'm looking for what are the changes needed? And I would say that's the biggest impediment. And you've probably seen this too, like this whole mentality and idea that I'm not going to make any changes. I'm going to keep rolling how I roll, but somehow everything is going to end up different. And that's probably one of the bigger ones is the lack of change and some of the big changes that are necessary typically at some of the various stages. You know, how are we communicating? How are we getting out there to our market? You know, first before that first 10 million, it's a lot of hoofing it, a lot of talking to family and friends and trying to get into networks and stuff. But then after that, you've got to, you've got to get out there. You've got to have a lot of communication going on and sometimes it's a balance between those expensive kind of methods like seminars and workshops or the less expensive methods of just finding people online and sending out connection requests. But either way, you have to have a change in communication. And then number two is a change in team. Often what I see is there's this, in fact, I talked to an advisor the other day that was fascinating. He had this mentality that because other advisors in his office were doing the same amount of business as him, but without a full-time assistant, then why would he warrant a full assistant? But in unpacking it, we realized, no, he's providing quite a bit more service, quite a bit more options and offers to his clients than the average advisor, in which case, obviously, he needs some help. So there's a look at that too. So team is the second big piece. And then finally, the third big piece is a big shift in brand. And not a change in who you are as a financial advisor, but a change in branding. And that's because as you scale, I like to show advisors this thing. So the average advisor that's at 200 million or so to 250 million is coming up into a barrier. Some of them want to move on to the billion because it sounds awesome. Some of them want to just double and get to the 500 million because that sounds great. But the reality is, that if they've been building a business up to that stage, working with clients with an average size of like two to 250,000 or maybe even 500,000, you think about the numbers that that's gonna take to then double, just a sheer volume of households you're working with. So obviously, that's typically why the industry as you grow, you ratchet up in client size. But as you do that, you have to gain a specialty in serving those people. They have a different set of needs, they have a different set of problems to overcome and they need a consultant that has an expertise in dealing with that. And so that's what I mean by a change in brand. You have to become that wealth advisor as opposed to investment advisor, so to speak. So and some people are not willing to do that. And then I do want to throw in this and you've probably seen this a lot too, Sam. And this is a there's there's a massive problem with comfort, right? Like when we get comfortable and don't have that like agitation to push through to the next level. They're, we're stymied. I mean, any change or anything that's that needs to be done, that's work is going to be pushed to the back burner because we're comfortable. And that's often what I see. That's why a lot of advisors reach that 200 to 250 million in assets level and then kind of stall out. And, you know, they, they talk a big game often, some of them pass through it and do what it takes to move on. Others just, there's a good deal of comfort. I mean, you're a big producer at 250 million in assets. So there's a lifestyle comfort, right?

Sam Sivarajan: 08:59

Right? Why change? Yeah. No, I think, you know, there's some great points that you made, Matt. Like I think the, this whole idea that there's a level of discomfort that you have to be willing to enjoy, right? Or accommodate, you know, to go from, it's a transition state, right? There's always a transition state. And as you're talking about this idea that you need to change, you know, whether it's your team, whether it's your brand, whether it's your approach, it reminds me, there's a book, it's a leadership book written by a leadership coach called, what got you here won't get you there, right? This idea that you have to kind of reevaluate and that is in many cases for all of us, whether it's on a personal or professional or a practice level, it's the thing that holds us back because, you know, we rightfully are proud of the work and effort that got us to where we are. But if we want to make that change, if we want to make that step change, you know, whatever it is, whether at the gym or whether at, you know, at work or whether in building a business, you have to really sit there and objectively assess that, you know, to go to that next level, what is the skill differential or the brand differential or the resource differential that you need? And are you prepared to make it? And, you know, look, you might not be, but it's better to have that honest assessment and then decide explicitly whether you're going to make that journey or not, right, rather than fooling yourself.

Matt Hicken: 10:32

Yeah, no, I 100 % agree. I think it's one of those things that, you know, and honestly, like as you were talking, one of the things that came to my mind is there is this internal confidence that's necessary, right, to go through change. I think you have to be completely comfortable with who you actually are as opposed to what you're doing. And there is this level if you're comfortable with who you are and the services you provide and the skill set you bring to this and, and you know, at the fundamental level, then it becomes easier to just make additions or, you know, subtractions based upon what's necessary to achieve that next level because you never change who you are. That, that, that's what is drawing people in.

Sam Sivarajan: 11:14

Right. No, I think bang on. I mean, I think one of the things that we often talk about in the business, and I think it's something you often talk about is how important systems are, not just for efficiency, which is a kind of maintaining kind of mindset, but even for growth. Can you share an example of a system that perhaps many advisory teams either overlook or under use?

Matt Hicken: 11:48

Yeah, so and I'm going to say this and it might have some listeners say, I don't need to listen to this part. I've got it. But it's referrals. The average advisor often grows through referrals and is achieving some good business through gaining referrals. But when I look at what we actually should expect through referrals and what could happen with the proper systems. Most advisors are woefully below what they deserve as far as referrals go. And that's because what we see with the proper systems is the average advisor is getting at least 15 % of their client households to give them at least one referral per year. So just thinking numbers, and I'll keep things simple for me, if you have 100 households you're working with, you should be getting 15 referrals a year. So if the average advisor is dealing with 150 to 200 households, we're living quite a bit below what we're looking for, because the average advisory business is not growing that fast. They're getting 2 to 3 % of their growth. Well, they're growing by 7 to 8 % average per year, and 2 to 4 % of that is coming from referrals, in which case we're living well below what you could possibly get. But the thing is is that being out there and doing a good job is the foundational aspect. It's kind of like the default necessity in order to get referrals, but it is a system of communication that's necessary in order to make sure that you achieve that 15%. And then if you want to add in introductions, which is kind of the next level up of a referral, you should be getting 20 to 24 % of your client households giving you at least one either referral or introduction per year.

Sam Sivarajan: 13:14

So can we break that down a bit, Matt, because I think this is interesting. So I take your point that there is a massive delta between what you can reasonably expect and perhaps what most advisors are getting. So what is that? What's the reason for it? They're not asking for the referrals, they're not following through on the referrals, they're not closing the referrals, all of the above?

Matt Hicken: 14:03

Yeah, all of the above. So to me, maybe the best place to start actually is I was reading the stat actually this morning. The latest number is at 72 % of investors who leave their advisor claim the biggest reason is for poor communication or the advisor not understanding them clearly based upon that communication. So to me, it's a it's a system of helping clients understand what you do, who you best serve, and then doing a great job for them so that they become raving fans. And then all I have to do is let the client know who I'm looking for, who they essentially should be looking for that would work with me, and then promote. And then for many of them, so I think the statistic was 54 % of investors would be willing to refer their advisor. which is a fascinating stat since 94 % are satisfied, very satisfied with their advisor, but 54 % would be willing to refer. But there's just something, there's some sort of impediment. And I would say at least half of those, it's because they're maybe shy, introverted, they're just not gonna go out there and they're not gonna be the one to say, go see my advisor. But of those that are, which is why we get the 20 to 24 % number, some of them just need an opportunity. They need to know what to say. They need to have an easy opportunity, right? So as far as how can I introduce somebody to my advisor? So I think the advisors are not, not enough advisors are providing that right communication. They're not providing enough of that, you know, personalized communication and help, and then helping the client understand how to be an advocate.

Sam Sivarajan: 15:37

No, I think those are great points and maybe, you know, I can share one of my own experiences in working with advisors. I think asking for a referral, even if the client is willing, I think you're asking them to do work, to sit there and think, you know, who might be a good candidate for Matt. If instead you say, you know, hey, Mr. Client, Mrs. Client, you know, we did some really good work together on your estate planning, et cetera. And I think we got that into a good place. And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy that we're there. You know, do you know anybody from your golf club, et cetera, that might be, you know, needing similar kind of work on their estate? I mean, what's your thought like being that specific to kind of narrow down so that the client isn't having to sit there and rack their brains as to who might be an appropriate person to refer. If you make that work easier for them, should that increase the likelihood that you're going to get more referrals?

Matt Hicken: 16:59

100%. And that's, that's what we say. So Bill Good, the founder of the company I work at, he taught me very early on that when we ask for a referral explicitly, hey, who do you know that I need to be working with? And I, you know, sit there and almost turn on the lamp up above their head and say, give me a name, you'll get names. But what you will not get is referrals, a referral is a name volunteered. And then even better is I want a referral that's qualified. And so I would even take one step further. So to me, there's three steps to giving a great referral promotion. And the very first one is tell them who to look for. And it's got to be something they're actually going to see. So I've heard some advisors, and this is, it's okay, right? If there's a good, better best, this is good. They say, well, if you know of anyone else that could benefit from using a financial plan like we've provided you, please send them our way. Cool. But literally nobody's at a party saying, man, I wish I could get a financial plan. And so the client's never gonna hear that. They may see some people, if they're a high level of advocacy for you or raving fan, then yeah, sure, they might push that out there and be a billboard for you. But what I wanna do is give them something specific to look for. And I might even say something like to your estate planning, say, hey, you know what, some of the biggest mistakes I see in estate planning occur within a year of retirement. So if you come across any friends or family members that are really coming close or about to retire or have retired recently, can you get them to me so that we can help them overcome those mistakes? So you'll see in that kind of promotion that I gave all three. So the first one is something specific that I'm actually gonna see. another one might be, a lot of people when they're going through a career change, they neglect some of the biggest changes that need to occur in their financial plan. And that's where I can come in and help them avoid any problems that would occur there. So if you know of anyone that's going through a career change, get them to me so I can help them. That's something specific I can watch for. But then the second thing is I need to tell them why it's urgent that their friend or family member get to me. There's mistakes in estate strategy. There's mistakes in the financial plan. There's a potential for problems going out there. Or I might even in today's day and age say, hey, look, like if you're coming across anyone that's confused or frustrated, with what's going on in the markets and the economy. What I've found is often it's because they're not hearing from their advisor like you hear from me. So if you come across anybody that expresses that, why don't you send them to me, I'd be happy to include them in my mailings or I'd be happy to talk to them, help them understand what actually is going on. So I'm alleviating frustration, right? So that's the second thing is I'm giving them an urgency to this. And then the third is tell them how to introduce you. Right? So I might even be get specific. Why don't we go get a cup of coffee so they can meet me and decide from there if they want to work together or hey, why don't you invite them to that next webinar or next seminar we're going to be hosting. But I'm going to give them an opportunity to introduce me.

Sam Sivarajan: 19:56

No, I love that, that's great. So continuing this idea of systems and process and the idea that you need to kind of change as you're growing and scaling. You know, we've talked about the importance of process over personality when you're trying to build a scalable practice. And that might be a tough shift for some advisors because it's also a personal business, right? And if you've relied on personal relationships for growth, it might've made sense at an earlier stage of your book and your business. What advice do you give to those who are hitting capacity and might need to make that mindset shift?

Matt Hicken: 20:23

Yeah. Yeah, so it's a great question. And honestly, there's a couple of parts to it that I think of. And the very first one is that, kind of like we've already talked about, I think you should never lose yourself as a financial advisor, but that's exactly why you need systems. Because the last thing I want any advisor to do is the stuff that absolutely none of us got into the advisory business to do, which is to manage team members. or to write up SOPs, right? None of us got into the business for that. So you shouldn't have to do that. In fact, the more you can set that up in advance or work with the team member to take that process or part of the systems over for you, the easier it is. Now, obviously, the $10 million advisor is not out there hiring an office manager, but you just have to distinguish yourself as an office manager from you know, let's say five to six o'clock every day and and that's when you're running procedures or things like that, but it's it's the efficiencies It's the processes that allow you to then be you it's it It's one of those weird things that the greater discipline you have the greater processes and systems you have the greater freedom you have Because you can always make more choices, but it's it's just you you set up a line that you're going to stay within that is your line. Every advisor is unique. I'll talk to some advisors that the systems and processes we set up allow them to run this way and others are allowing them to run this way and that's fine. So allow that personality to be there, but allow it to be there through the processes. And then the other thing I want to mention is that need for the proper team members. Again, no advisor I know of got in this business to be a manager of team. And this is often the problem that I see in the difference between the $500 million producer and the billion dollar producer is you're at a capacity level there where you're starting to hire the fourth, fifth or sixth team member, depending upon whether or not you're at a firm or an RIA. And at that stage, management duties, HR, is taking a significant portion just because of the number of people. And so it's at that stage about where you need to be looking at having an operations manager or a administrative associate that's running those kinds of things. Often I would look to your service associate that's been with you for a long time. They're already pretty disciplined and understand you and your processes. And if they want to maybe pull or step up, then this would be a great method. But really kind of taking on that chief operations officer position. I know it's a highfalutin title for a small team, but it's what it is. And and kind of take those things off the plate of the advisors so that they can focus in on just those things they want to do because it's often at that stage too that I start talking to advisors that are they're hitting a bit of burnout But when I talk to them about where that burnout is coming from it's you know compliance work office management work red tape That's not the fun stuff, but if I can get you the time to just spend in front of prospective clients and existing clients by having this operations person or having the systems built appropriately, then there's a rejuvenation of career. I had an advisor in West Virginia that we went through this a few years ago where he was taking a lot of time off. He would take some sabbaticals and just constantly hitting burnout. And now it's been three years straight. He's working fewer hours. on a weekly basis, but he hasn't taken any huge breaks because he hasn't had the burnout because we set in the systems and processes that allow him to be him. And he's experienced massive growth as far as assets under management just because of those systems and processes that we put into place, allowing him to focus on what he's really, really good at.

Sam Sivarajan: 24:46

No, I think like to me, I've always believed that process is it sounds boring to your point, but I think they make a difference and it isn't about removing your personality. There isn't one process that is going to work for everybody. It's actually taking what you do and what works really well for you and putting it into a repeatable process so that you're not sitting there thinking that every time that you're, you know, you're opening up accounts for a client and you got to do documentation and paperwork that you're reinventing the wheel. Right that you're sitting there saying, okay, what do I do first? What do I do second if there is a systematic process that you know the checklist for example that first this then this then this etc, you know, even that is saving so much amount of time and it becomes As you say, things like admin, things like compliance are unavoidable. But if you can systematize it through a process, if you can do it so that you have people that, if you're at the size where you can have people that are focused on that jobs, etc, it is eminently freeing and allowing you to focus on where your competitive advantage really lies, which presumably is in front of clients and helping them solve their problems.

Matt Hicken: 25:36

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well, and I think a lot of advisors that I'm talking to are taking those checklist processes. And, you know, certain checklists are, you know, you can't program into a CRM as far as a, you know, a task workflow or something like that. Certain checklists, others you can, and I think you need to work on that. But a lot of them are using AI to take some of their old checklists and programming it in to turn it into a flow chart. because all of us do better with pictures. We never quite left that picture book stage. And so we do better with pictures as flow charts. And you think about it as a new team member coming into the office and being told, okay, yeah, you're responsible for these set of processes and here's your flow charts. That's all I have to do if I've done it right. Here's your flow charts. Because now all they have to do is take that flow chart and follow it, like watch the pictures and do it. And maybe a couple of questions here and there, but that's honestly how most of us best learn is through reading and then doing the tactile aspect of it. And then talking and asking people questions, but totally frees you to have that already written and down and in front of them, as opposed to having to sit down with every new team member and walk through it.

Sam Sivarajan: 27:15

100%. So let's shift gears slightly, Matt. Let's talk now instead of about growth about succession. So it's a conversation that, at least I've found, and I'm sure you would agree that many advisors delay or avoid altogether. From your experience, what does a healthy succession plan look like? And when should advisors actually start thinking about it?

Matt Hicken: 27:19

So to my mind, and I'd love to hear your thoughts too, just to win is now. I don't know where you're at in your career, but right now start. Because it's exactly as you talk to your investor clients about, right? You sit down in front of them and they're in their 30s and they're just got that big promotion. They're starting that new job. They're going to do that initial deposit and they're thinking about a saving system. What are you talking to them about? You're not talking about next year. You're talking about the retirement plans. Like, well, what's their estate strategy? Like that, that's what you're focused on, but they're in their thirties. It should be the same for you. If you're in your thirties, forties as a financial advisor and you're like, Matt, I've got 30 years in me in this business and this is awesome. Great. I love that. What's the end result? What is your succession strategy look like? What does your financial plan look like? And, and not just the financial plan. Cause I think most financial advisors, you know, do a decent job of looking at their own financial plan, but What does that life look like to you? This is where a lot of amiss is, you know, we all have this idea in our heads that we're gonna work until we can't work anymore and then we'll just kind of glide out. But I'm sorry, but we've already talked about that's a system and a process, which means you've got to think about it in advance. So to me, it's now, I don't know what you've seen, but wherever you're at, I think now.

Sam Sivarajan: 28:57

No, look, I couldn't agree more. I think the one phrase that kind of always resonates in my mind, there's a book or something that says, start with the end in mind. And so for me, I think that's a powerful way of thinking. So if you are even early in your career and thinking that somewhere down the road, you are going to want to sell this as a practice, as a business. Well, I think you have to start with that end in mind because I think in my experience, too many advisors have you know, for lack of a better word, a lifestyle business. It's great. They actually add value to, you know, to their clients and they have a good lifestyle, et cetera, but there isn't really a business there that they can sell. without them being part of it, right? And so again, there's nothing wrong with that. But if your end in mind is going to be that you want to sell a business, then you need to make sure that there is a business to sell. So then you have to work backwards and think about, okay, who is going to take over my clients, my practice when I walk away, when I step away from this? What systems, what processes do I need in place so that the clients that we have succeeded in bringing on and their next generation, et cetera, that there is a brand and experience, a process that they can follow, et cetera. Again, it's a lot like what you said, like a lot of what the advisors that are listening here would advise their clients to do. If you're a business owner client and you're looking to sell, You know, the what is the person buying? They're buying a business. They're not buying, you know, a collection of assets, right? They're buying a business that is going to be functioning even post sale. And so I think this idea of succession plan, to your point, I think, you know, you need to have a clearly in mind, what is it that you want? I mean, are you trying to sell a business? You have to have in mind, you know, what are you looking for? If there's a family member that you think is going to take over, et cetera. Okay, that's an option. if there is a junior advisor that you've got groomed, that's an option. But I've heard stories of people that have, you know, groomed a junior advisor and, you know, just on the, on the eve of taking over, cetera, the junior advisor leaves for personal or other reasons, et cetera, right? So, Look, I think this, in my experience, know, the succession planning is a conversation that always needs to happen and it always needs to be evaluated. It's not that, you know, it's that you're doing something every day, but you need to have the thoughts to it. And I'll maybe share one more story about why, you know, you can't put it off. It's a rather unfortunate story. It's somebody I know really well and as a business partner and somebody I genuinely like reached out to me and October, November of last year, he's a business owner and he was looking for some advice and you know about getting succession and everything in order and you we started talking and you know, it was coming on to the holiday season and I was away in January and you know, we'd agreed that we'd talk in February and you know, I'd asked him could it wait until then and he said, yeah, it's no big deal. Well, anyways, when I tried to reach out in February, it didn't get anywhere. And then I found out that he'd actually passed away in January. And so, you know, he wasn't all that old. mean, you know, this gentleman had built a very successful business, you know, had, I think, off and on tried to get a succession in place, but clearly felt when we talked in October, November, that it wasn't in place. But, you know, equally clearly, he felt that he had time. And I think that's the one great unknown that none of us can predict is, you know, is time on our side or not. So, you know, to me, that was unfortunately a very shocking reminder or awakening that, you know, that you can't put some of these things off because, you know, we don't dictate what's going to happen, right?

Matt Hicken: 33:02

Yeah. I totally agree. And I've got a few of those. In fact, two of them were the successor, like the plan, the junior advisor that was the plan to take over, unfortunately passed away before succeeding the aging advisor. so it was this, of course they didn't think they needed a plan because they were taking over. But unfortunately that caused a lot of problems and a lot of issues. fortunately, in one of the cases, the firm had put together somewhat of agreement, but unfortunately that firm established agreement was essentially a form of handcuffs on the aging advisor to be able to serve those clients and take care of this junior advisor's portion of the book. So it's definitely something that has to be evaluated. And to me, there are five key areas as far as the succession strategy that have to be looked at. And the very first one, I love that you made this point and I've seen some of your other stuff where you've made this point several times. So I hope this is hitting home. for the advisors that are listening to you and me and others, and that is this is a business, right? You have to look at it as selling a business in which case it can't be you, right? If you're going to leave, the business has to be able to exist. So that's number one is start addressing that because you need a team member that remains.

Sam Sivarajan: 34:21

Mm-hmm.

Matt Hicken: 34:35

that can help with the relationship side. Now, maybe as you said, maybe that's the junior and the junior stays on for four or five years. Usually takes three years for a good junior if we started in the right way to establish that trusted advisor identity, which they have to create their own brand before they're able to do that. So that I would need that time frame. Maybe it's a kid. That one's a little bit tougher. Might take a little bit longer just because they've maybe seen you grow up. And so now that you're still the kid that was running around the office, and so you gotta, again, push out the new expertise. But there has to be somebody there in the office, and preferably multiple somebody's for the exact reasons we've been talking about, who the clients can depend on, who they can look to as that trusted professional. So that's number one is team. Number two, and this also has to do with that process is, There's a lot of advisors that are phenomenal at what they do on the investment side. They're the investment chooser. They're the ones that are setting up the strategies and the processes and systems. And it's this complex mix of science and art, and they're absolutely brilliant at it, but there's no teaching anybody that art. And the science part, sure, but the art side, that's tough to find somebody that can replicate you. So, you know, in your investment process, I've done this with a few teams of sitting down and trying to look at, okay, let's take that art and try to systemize it as much as we can, or at the very least help me understand it so I can help your junior understand it. Because that's the other thing is it's often hard for the lead advisor to teach the art side. They just do, right? So I just watch them do and then I can teach. But we need to pass that on because it can't be dependent on you. And I've had several advisors that we've worked with that You know, that whole process was too much. They were already, you know, running into some thoughts of, do I continue managing this? Because that's, I like it, I'm good at it, but my true passion is sitting down with people and helping to interfere. so we've got to discuss that and maybe we could achieve the same end result by going through and outsourcing it to a manager that does it similarly. But either way, I need to have the investment side shored up. Number three.

Sam Sivarajan: 36:42

Right.

Matt Hicken: 37:00

Be a growing practice. A lot of advisors that I talk to feel like, especially if they are later in the career and thinking, hey, I'm running a $3 million GDC book and this is a great book and I'll just hold this until the day I decide to exit and sell it and get my one to three times trailing 12. And that sounds awesome. But we all know that unfortunately a book that's not growing is shrinking. And when somebody comes in and evaluates your book, which I've done several myself and you can go to a lot of the sources and groups out there and ask them what they think. It's one of the things they're going to look at. Is this book growing or is it dying? And if it's dying, the value goes down. So be a growing book. So in other words, you have to have three to four operating marketing channels that are generating consistent leads. Preferably those marketing channels include a network, which just means that organic growth that's coming out of the portfolio. So again, back to our referral conversation. Maximize your referrals that shows a significant valuable book for any purchaser Next it's and to me this is a Kind of two reasons for this and this is the systems and processes and one Reason is obviously if I'm purchasing a book that's operating smoothly a lot of book purchases that I'm seeing are occurring over city cities, you know purchasing advisors and he over here and the by you know being purchased advisors over there and What I want to know if I'm a purchasing advisor is can this thing operate without me sitting there overseeing it day to day? Because I've got my own thing, right? So if I want to expand the people that want to buy, which obviously if I expand to that market, I can create a higher multiple and a higher demand for the value of my book. Then I need to have them see that this thing runs itself. So having the systems and processes for that reason are good. And then the other side of it is I've seen some valuations go and books be purchased strictly to get those systems and processes, the trademarked things that the advisor does that the purchasing advisor had been trying to put together and saw this thing and said, hey, you know what, that's valuable to me. So having the right systems and processes on how you do what you do could very well be the reason why they buy you. So in the book is kind of a side benefit. So definitely having the systems and processes that are documented, that are followed, and that are demonstrably working is the big key piece there. So those are the big areas that I see that absolutely must be managed and monitored.

Sam Sivarajan: 39:41

I think those are great tips, Matt, and I agree with all of them. You've mentioned when we talked a little bit about marketing channels, et cetera, like having three or four in the tips that you're talking about operating at any time and the referrals being one. We live in a world right now where we've got social media, we've got internet. Can you talk a little bit about some of the channels that you're seeing being well used and maybe some that you see as being perhaps underutilized in your work.

Matt Hicken: 40:17

Totally. So one that I'm most excited about right now, just because I'm seeing several do really well with it, and especially in the high net worth realm, is with seminars and workshops. I still hear from some advisors that, that doesn't work. I work with high net worth clients or mass affluent clients. so I'm not, know, seminars are more for the plate lickers and the mass folks. And it's not true. I ran a seminar with an advisor in Las Vegas where you know just had a conversation with him yesterday and he's gonna be closing an 18 million dollar account out of that seminar so It's it's definitely possible But where where the key is is what are you talking about if you're still doing the same old tired Social Security? Maximization seminar. Yeah, you're not getting that ultra high net worth individual or high net worth individual But if you're doing a custom presentation on your unique solutions for your target market and looking at exactly what are the problems they are trying to solve that you can solve and you're giving a presentation on that, then seminars are a phenomenal form of marketing, you know, because you're getting them in a room to see you for an hour to establish your trusted advisor identity. So the numbers we see is you should be getting 50 to 60 % of those attendees to schedule an appointment with you. And of those, you should be closing 60 to 70%. And if you're not at those levels, one of the things that I do is I go into offices, I'll work with advisors on creating the presentation, the invitation, working with outsourced, prospecting, marketing methods in order to get the invitations out, and then come into the office, work with you on your presentation, walk through it with you several times and... And then I'll watch you give the presentation live in a seminar and help you give feedback and know how to run the event because you the presentation is a big piece, but at least 50 % of it is what you're doing around that presentation. So that's one that I think a lot of people are taking advantage of, but there's things we could dial in to get those numbers I'm talking about. And then the one that I think people are, are trying too much and this might get some people upset with me, but is digital marketing. Now, I want to separate digital marketing from digital branding, right? It's a very different thing. You have to do branding. You have to have presence. You have to be found and you have to look good, which is what we've always said. But the digital marketing side where I'm doing ads, I'm doing the automated connections and all that stuff on social media. So my experience in working with teams that are both doing it extremely well and not is that there's three things that are absolute must for digital marketing to work. And that is that You have to have the right message. It has to be given to the right people and it has to be the right timing. And so it's one of those things that those things change constantly. I had a team that was getting six, seven great leads out of their digital marketing every single month. and then they had a, back office clearing firm change. And so they had to take the ads down, get re-approval, put it back up with a slightly different logo. Nothing crickets. Same message, same everything else. Uh, I don't think the logo is what, you know, turned people off. It just different timing. And so it's one of those things you have to be consistently doing it. And it also tends to take six months, uh, to get it geared up, to get those dialed in. Um, so if you think about it and you're spending, know, 3000 to 10,000 per month, which is about the average spend on a good digital marketing campaign, uh, for six months. Couldn't I have run two seminars and gotten just as many new clients. Uh, so that's, I lean that way. But if an advisor is dead set on digital marketing, we can talk about it. I just, that's one of those that I think everybody wants to do it because it sounds simple and easy, but it's not. It's something you gotta get.

Sam Sivarajan: 44:11

No, I love that. And I think you're absolutely right. think like, look, digital marketing sounds easy. It sounds sexy. You know, it sounds like, you know, very innovative, et cetera. But I think to your point, there's a lot of moving pieces there and that you have to get them right. they don't just because you get it right last month doesn't mean you're going to get it right this month. Right. And I totally agree with your point that digital branding to me is a no brainer. It's a must have in these days and world because I mean, just look at ourselves like anything that I need to do or What if the first thing I do is I go online to see who that person is or what they are doing and what they're about, et cetera. So I think we need a digital presence. And I think your point about seminars, think is I, you know, I look, I'm old fashioned, but that's the way that I've seen the business work and it does. And, I was doing a workshop yesterday and I was using the example of, know, Costco walking in and those, you know, the food testing and the samples that you get like. Why does, you know, why does Costco do that? Why do others do it? It's a low cost, no commitment way of saying, okay, try this out. And I mean, it's not the same example, but that's what a seminar is, right? You're trying to get somebody to give you the time of day to tell you all about their personal affairs and give you details, et cetera. Well, you need to earn that right. And, you know, in my experience, what we used to do running up running up ultra high net worth businesses, we did do those seminars because it was a way for demonstrating, you know, that who we are and that we understood that our value proposition is something that was going to resonate with this target client. And so they could see, you know, who we are, what we did, how we did it. And in the process, there is this social proof that they get from seeing others in that room that's saying, well, you know, these people are here, then, you know, this person must be good, right?

Matt Hicken: 45:53

Mm-hmm. and then gonna go home. Yeah, no, I get it. And that's an excellent point. I love that example of Costco. That's brilliant.

Sam Sivarajan: 46:15

So we're in an industry that's always chasing growth for the reasons that you alluded to. Like if you're looking to sell, like, I mean, you know, if you're not growing, you're, shrinking. And that makes sense, whether it's from inflation, whether it's from people taking money out to, you know, for retirement expenses, et cetera. But I think we would both agree there's a difference between growth and sustainable growth. So what are some red flags that you have seen that a team is growing in a way that might not be sustainable?

Matt Hicken: 46:38

Yes. Well, so first and foremost, I think, you all of us would look at it this way, but sometimes when we're looking at growth, we forget it. The whole point of this is for you to be able to sit down with an individual or family and help them achieve their financial objectives and really truly help as many people as we possibly can. So if we're failing on service, as Bill Good would say, if there's a hole at the other end of the bathtub, there is literally no point in continuing to fill it. So you've got to provide great service. So usually when I see that occur, where there's a significant loss of clients, and there's always a good excuse. I've talked to some teams, it was funny that, you know, we don't lose many clients. I think we only lost six last year, but it was for these reasons. like, you lost six people and wasn't to death. Like death is really the only reason we should lose somebody. And then it's a sad thing, but like, you shouldn't be losing people out the back end. Cause if the average advisor is growing between 15 to 20 new households per year and you're losing six, that's not sustainable growth. So the second thing that I look at, so your service models, are you doing great service? The second thing I look at is the team. Often I look at advisors that are, they're all kinds of excited about growing and getting major things going on. It's one of those things that I think is funny because I go to the advisors offices and I tell them about the 12 different marketing channels and they get all excited, which is true. I get excited about it. love marketing. But the reality is, is ultimately the average advisor slash service team can handle between 30 to 40 new households per year. That's what I've seen kind of across the industry. You can tweak those numbers depending upon who's helping in the administrative side, how much is digitized, you know. number of advisors per number of service associates kind of a thing. I have like five advisors in one service that might be a little different of a number. But ultimately if I'm looking at 30 to 40 households per year and you know, I'm running whatever, every campaign that comes at me because somebody proposed it and I'm generating, you know, good 20 to 30 leads per month and trying to close them. What I tend to see is we start stumbling over ourselves because we can't keep up. Like that's, just too large of a volume. Um, so close ratios start to drop, uh, you know, lead, uh, to appointment ratios start to drop, uh, service, uh, things start to drop, mistakes start to occur. Uh, I start hearing of, you know, team member turnover, uh, more often, uh, because it's, it's an unsustainable level of, of attempted growth. So to me, it's, I'm shooting for that 30 to 40 households, uh, and I'm going to look at each one of the areas of the 12 channels in order of ROI and hit them until I'm getting enough leads to get to that 30 to 40 new households. I'm not going beyond. Even if somebody walks into my office and says, hey, there's this advisor down in Texas that is a guaranteed method. what got him a billion in new assets and it's this cool new thing. And he's selling his system. I'm not buying it because I've already got my 30 to 40 new households per year. I'm sticking to what I have. And if one of those things starts to miss out or a channel starts to drop or a 2020 happens and I can no longer do seminars, and yeah, sure, I'll look at other options to replace. But don't go faster than you're able, I guess would be the key there.

Sam Sivarajan: 50:12

No, I think that's a very important point. you know, I've seen it in all sorts of businesses that it's one thing to try to grow the top line. Not that that's easy, but it's one thing to grow it. But if you're not thinking about growing all the systems that support that top line, I think you might be in trouble, right? And if you've done it right, and if it is actually a scalable business, you're not because you're doubling sales doesn't mean you have to double all your fixed costs. But you still have to see that, you know, that you're infrastructure can handle it, right? And if you can't, know, all of the, it's actually going to become worse because what you're doubling is on the sales side is going to mean that you're actually affecting your brand, you're affecting your reputation, affecting your people's ability, you know, like the burnout of your people, et cetera. So I think, I think it's a very good piece of advice that don't, know, growth is good, but it has to be at a pace that you can sustain, you know, over the long term, right?

Matt Hicken: 51:18

Yeah. Yeah. And, just another key on that too, just there was an advisor that I helped with their seminars and the seminars were great. And so they thought, let's start doing this monthly, which I get. but the problem is, is that's now going to become your sole channel. And, you know, I worked with an advisor that, that that was his sole channel up into 2020. And when 2020 happened and suddenly we can't get together for seminars, he had no other method of lead generation. And it took him two and a half years. And you know half a year of work with me to start generating leads again so it's it's a You have to have multiple channels. Don't rely on just one.

Sam Sivarajan: 51:59

Well, I was thinking, as you were saying, you know, we're in the business of advising our clients about the importance of portfolio diversification. mean, it's not any different when you're talking about, you know, channels and, know, roots to market. Right. So, Matt, we're coming to the end of our podcast. So I have a few final rapid fire questions for you that I ask all my guests. So number one, professionally, what is the most important lesson you've learned over the years?

Matt Hicken: 52:05

Yeah. Yes. Ooh, good. It's like asking me my favorite movie. You know what? Just because we've said it already in this broadcast, stay true to who you are. That's your brand. Stick to it.

Sam Sivarajan: 52:40

Very good advice. Number two, what is one practical tip you would offer listeners keen on applying your insights?

Matt Hicken: 52:48

so take it piece at a time. I tend to, you know, speak fast and lay out a whole lot of stuff. Pick one, pick one, do it, and then come back and listen again and we can do another one.

Sam Sivarajan: 53:01

Awesome. Matt, this has been a great discussion. Very, very insightful. And I think I'm sure the audience will find it the same. If listeners want to learn more about you or find your work, where do they go?

Matt Hicken: 53:14

So if you go to Billgoodmarketing.com, it's all one word and a B-I-L-L-G-O-O-D marketing.com, you'll see I'm unfortunately plastered all over there. So you'll be able to find me. I teach a course, I do consultations, all that information is on that website.

Sam Sivarajan: 53:29

Perfect. Matt, thank you for joining us today on the Future Ready Advisor.

Matt Hicken: 53:34

Awesome, thank you very much.