Behind the Curtain of Family Business: Trust, Conflict, and Legacy with Kim Siegers-Robinson

Sam Sivarajan: 00:01

Hi everyone. I'm your host Sam Sivarajan. Welcome to today's episode of the Future Ready Advisor. Today, I'm joined by Kim Segers Robinson, a family business advisor and expert who helps families navigate the conversations that matter most, but often happen least. While many professionals focus on tax, legal, and investment strategies, Kim works at the heart of family business, communication, relationships and legacy. Today, we're going to talk about what I call the soft stuff. That's actually the hard stuff and why advisors need to be comfortable going there if they want to truly support their clients across generations. Kim, welcome to the show.

Kim Robinson: 00:48

Thanks, Sam.

Sam Sivarajan: 00:50

I think this is a very timely conversation and I'll get onto why I think this is something that is resonating with me over the last few weeks and months. But let me start. You've spent years working with families and family businesses. Perhaps maybe you can share your journey. What led you to this space and what I call the soft stuff of family business became your focus.

Kim Robinson: 01:17

Thanks Sam. I think I've spent majority of my career in consulting type activities. And so I developed a deep interest in business overall and came to really appreciate the entrepreneurial spirit probably in the last 15, 20 years. you know, everywhere from farmers to manufacturers to commodity traders to retailers is a real diversity of types of business, which always keeps us interested and engaged. On a personal note, I personally grew up with a somewhat, somewhat, that's probably an understatement, dysfunctional family. And this has really given me great empathy for those that are experiencing the same. And it's given me a lot of passion for helping people work through those issues and communicate better and push past those dynamics to something more healthy. So that experience has helped me sit. you know, kind of in difficult moments with families, whether they're in a business or not, and stay with them and guide them to where they want to head without feeling any judgment or feeling like I need to get involved. It doesn't trigger me at all, maybe because I grew up with some of it. just is, you know, something I can cope with a little more easily.

Sam Sivarajan: 02:32

Yeah, I think you hit on something very important here, Kim. When you say sit with them, go through some of these issues, et cetera, it's what people would, as I said in the intro, probably characterize as soft, but I think it's anything but soft. It's some of the core issues that drive some of the technical solutions that we as advisors are used to giving. And it's not that those technical solutions aren't important. but without getting to the bottom of some of these core issues, some of these core emotions, some of these core values, you perhaps might be missing the boat, right? Would you agree with that?

Kim Robinson: 03:13

Yeah, think they really go hand in hand. Like, it's not one of those things that's more important than another to have like an effective plan for your business, your family, your life, your wealth. You you need to have all of those things working well together. And part of the problem is they often don't.

Sam Sivarajan: 03:33

True, true. In one of your articles, you've highlighted the fact that 60 % of family business failures are due to a breakdown in trust and communication, not taxes or legal structures. It sort of surprised me when I saw that stat, but when I thought about it, that makes sense to me. Why do you think so many advisors and families still struggle to address these softer emotional dynamics?

Kim Robinson: 04:00

Well, as humans, we generally try to avoid discomfort. Generally speaking, that's an old stat. It's from a study done in 2003. It's been quoted in Harvard Business Review a number of times, but by Williams and Presser. And while they haven't updated those statistics or that research, I do kind of feel that that rings true with my experience with families and family business in particular.

Sam Sivarajan: 04:06

True, Yeah.

Kim Robinson: 04:31

Succession is multidisciplinary and part of the problem why that 60 % is there is I don't think professionals are collaborating well together always. And so when they, because it takes a village sometimes, because we all come at things from a different viewpoint, a different expertise. When it can work together as a team, really we can support the family in different aspects and that's how I like to work. So, you know.

Sam Sivarajan: 04:39

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 04:56

families might worry a lot, they might complain a lot what's not working, but the devil they know is what they've swept under the carpet. If they kick that hornet's nest, what can happen? And so they don't deal with it or they deal with it poorly. And it's an avoidance tactic. And so usually what they fear the most is what happens because they've left it so long. It's better to deal with it when it's just a couple of bees in the nest rather than fully buzzing.

Sam Sivarajan: 05:04

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 05:27

you know, that they'll leave the business. So there's a breakdown in the family or they don't, can't sit down at Thanksgiving dinner anymore, or they, you know, they don't spend time at the cottage together anymore, go on the annual ski trip. this, these, these are big, big things. And so, you know, they're probably just not dealing with it because they're, they're fearful of the worst, then the worst happens. For advisors, I think sometimes they just, you just don't know because maybe people aren't talking about it.

Sam Sivarajan: 05:33

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 05:54

because it is under the carpet and we're not rolling around with a sign on our head with our dysfunction. we assume it's okay, right? And like most families don't have drop-down fights, they don't, but the unconstructive conflict isn't just about anger and raising your voice and storming out of the room. It's also keeping the peace. Keeping the peace is just as destructive because it comes calling.

Sam Sivarajan: 06:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 06:22

You know, that carpet gets pretty full of stuff. So we start tripping over it. And advisors might be nervous about asking them these questions because maybe I'm concerned about what's going to come up or whether I can help them or not.

Sam Sivarajan: 06:37

Yeah, think that's a very fair point. think by asking the question, you might be opening up a floodgate that you're not in a position to handle if anything is coming. But more importantly, I suspect many advisors may feel that they're poking into areas that the client or the other person may feel is none of their business, right?

Kim Robinson: 06:59

Yes. Yeah. And there's a difference about from, you know, about being curious and, know, understanding what's going on for them. you know, then trying to diagnose things, right? So it's, if we think we have to solve everything, then we probably won't ask. And we don't have to solve everything. It's about maybe caring with the human being asking what's going on with their family. asking what's going on with the family business. Just understanding that in their perspective, from a perspective of, you know, how can I help and how can I help doesn't mean I have to solve it. It can mean, you know, I know somebody or, you know, I can help you the piece of it. So it's really thinking about what are all the problems my clients could have and, and do I have to support system around to help them if I come across this.

Sam Sivarajan: 07:51

That's an important point you made, and I just want to reflect on that a bit. We don't have to be solving the problem. And it reminds me of the conversations that we would have with loved ones or with friends. I mean, we're not necessarily trying to solve every problem, but empathy and caring for that other person. You would ask about things that are important to them. You would dig a little bit deeper, go beyond, you know, last night's hockey game or the weather today, et cetera. You would ask about these things, right? And I think, I think it's a nice mindset to have when you're going into your client discussions and meetings, just be your authentic self, be, show empathy, be like you would be with your friends or with your family.

Kim Robinson: 08:24

or the weather.

Yes.

Great.

Yes.

Sam Sivarajan: 08:46

Now, one of the things I said at the beginning, this topic resonates deeply with me, particularly in recent months. And I'll share the story that got me here. So I recently had a business owner that I know very well for decades. Let's call him John, who reached out to me in early December to start talking about his business succession, wanted some advice and some ideas from me. And we had planned to revisit things after the holidays. Now, I just want to put this into context. He was in his mid sixties and from all I knew, quite healthy. But the, can probably guess he sadly passed away in late January before we had had that conversation. And for me, it's still, rankles. It's still a stark reminder that we don't always have the time we think we do for any of us. How can advisors help families understand the urgency of having these conversations before it's too late? Again, walking that fine balance.

Kim Robinson: 09:59

Yeah, well, first of all, I'm sorry to hear that. That's tough. And if you were going to speak to them, I'm sure that you had a strong personal connection and he obviously went too young. Yeah. And I'm sorry to hear that. So, you know, in my experience, taking a look at like, why don't they do it? Why do they put it off? Why is there another day to discuss this? Well, succession is daunting, right? There's a lot of decisions and business owners are super busy either putting out fires or putting in investments of their time and energy into growing the business and handling risks. All the things we know, it's not easy. And a business when you've put your blood, sweat and tears into it is part of your identity. tossing that around is about discussing change and

Sam Sivarajan: 10:48

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 10:55

identity and they're in the mode of growing and advancing. So, you that's their mindset in my experience. Sometimes they're not. It depends how many generations. First generation will be the toughest, second can be two. And as we get along, maybe our identity isn't strictly the business, but everybody's different. So one way I found into that is to talk about, what if something happens to you?

Sam Sivarajan: 11:24

proverbially robust, right?

Kim Robinson: 11:26

I continue the beer truck hopefully, but I continue to be baffled why it's more comfortable to talk about being dead than being retired for a business owner, but it is. So it's a way in because questions like, if something happened to you, how would the business do? Like how would it fare?

Sam Sivarajan: 11:29

Yeah.

Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 11:52

Do feel like you have everything in place? Do you feel like people are ready? And would it be valuable to kind of disaster proof that area? Because they're usually a pretty critical resource, right? They're providing something amazing and the next generation, even if they're strong, might not have components that maybe they have strategic alliances or they're just amazing at making connections to new business opportunities. A lot of entrepreneurs walk around and...

Sam Sivarajan: 12:04

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 12:21

spot opportunity on a daily basis. So not everybody can do that. So is the next generation ready for that? Are we preparing them for it? So really it's a strategic way into succession. You're still thinking the same type of things, but you don't necessarily have to press the retire button. So that's a sneaky way I found it, and it's still very, very helpful to them.

Sam Sivarajan: 12:46

I like that. And you're right. It is easier to talk about us passing away than to think about the third act of our life. But it's a lot of the same components, especially from a family business point of view. You'd have to still think about things about who runs the business. How does the proceeds get split between multiple kids? Are they all involved? Do they have an operational role or are they simply passive shareholders?

Kim Robinson: 13:15

Mm-hmm.

Sam Sivarajan: 13:15

So you're right, using that as the doorway, if you will, to have that deeper conversation about the interconnection between the family and the business dynamics is sneaky, but they're helpful, I think.

Kim Robinson: 13:32

Yeah, well, eventually everybody's gonna die. I think we've all come to terms like that, but we don't necessarily always have a real specific slow down or retire date because like you said, it's a new chapter and that change is not always an easy one.

Sam Sivarajan: 13:50

Now, I'm sure you've had the same experience, but I often hear from families that they want things to be equal when it comes to inheritance or succession. But equal doesn't always mean fair. And I always remember about a story that one of my former clients told me about his daughter going to an Ivy league school while his son excelled at hockey. So he happily paid for his daughter's school, but the son expected the cash equivalent.

Kim Robinson: 14:18

Mm-hmm.

Sam Sivarajan: 14:19

Do you guide families through these nuanced conversations around fair versus equal? Because I think that's an important component, right? I mean, if you're looking for families, you know, as a part of the communication issue that you talked about, if these are not talked about before, it could create resentment and dysfunction in the family after the parents have passed, right?

Kim Robinson: 14:43

Yes, yeah, and you you've picked up on a common one. Whether there is a family business or not, this comes up a lot. It's a little tougher with family business because you have different dynamics going on, but it is an area families typically get stuck. you know, fair is an emotional equation. It's not a math equation. it's usually how people feel about it.

Sam Sivarajan: 14:54

Right.

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 15:10

and their perceptions and values around what fair means. So equal is one way to define fair. It's not the only way, there's many. Another one would be, you know, what's an individual's needs as an example. So how I approach these type of issues is I would typically have an individual conversation with each member to understand their perspective and kind of get underneath the root of their concern. Where did, and what does fair mean to them? And where does that definition come from? So siblings, know, siblings in business in particular are known to be the toughest model. Cause you know, you think that would be not tough cause we grew up with the same value system, grew up with the same parents. You know, we've had to deal with each other longer than any relationship in our life. However, there's little things that happen along the way that create competition and sibling rivalry. And none of us are generally taught how to do conflict or communicate well, sadly, you know.

Sam Sivarajan: 15:53

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 16:10

Hopefully we figure it out along the way. I'm personally getting better with age. I hope that keeps happening. but, so the other thing is to really step back and understand the parent's intent. So parents, you know, I've rarely met a parent that has negative intent about their children. It's pretty rare. So assuming positive intent, what was that? And where did that come from? So then after you have these individual conversations, you have a,

Sam Sivarajan: 16:17

Ha ha ha.

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 16:40

you know, some good information about everyone's perspective, then you can really understand where they're on the same page, where they're different, and maybe the root of where this has come from, because likely that's not the first time that Sun's felt something unfair. Like it didn't just come up around this, I'm sure there's other scenarios along the way. And when it's a family business and this comes up, Fair versus Equal, which happens even more, I'm usually looking at what's behind it. I categorize issues into three types. The first is, is it a system issue? Like their structure or processes or in the business they have unclear roles or maybe they don't have a family employment policy and therefore everybody's, it's a secret how much everybody gets paid. You know what I mean? That can create problems. The second is, is it a relationship issue? So what are the interpersonal dynamics between people? Is there trust? Is there conflict or communication issues? Or is there a development issue where an individual has some areas where they can develop and be better? And often it's all three. And families usually focus on the relationship side that, oh, this person doesn't get along with this person. But if you dig down in there, there's usually a system that's off. So can you identify where it really came from?

Sam Sivarajan: 17:56

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 18:02

So then when I bring the family together, we talk about these things and categorize them together. And so that's to get on the same page as where we are. Then we fast forward to the future and say, well, what does FAIR mean? Like to each of us. And what's the family definition of FAIR? And then let's apply the Ivy League school situations to that definition. How does it apply with that on the table? Really, you're trying to shift them from

Sam Sivarajan: 18:23

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 18:29

past grievances into what do want the future to look like because these parents are still alive and there's a lot more coming with their legacy planning, And so this little stuff can see trivial and we'll say, that's just Johnny or Johnny doesn't understand Susie or whatever. But the greatest gift parents can give their children is to address the situation. It's as you said, after they're gone, there's no resolving it. There's no understanding their intent. And we make up stories as human beings, make assumptions and make a story that doesn't even exist. So, you know, do I want to live? Do I want to have a legacy that's uplifting for the future generation? Do I want them to have Thanksgiving? Do I want them to go skiing together annually, whatever it is, or I want to, you know, leave open wounds that are going to create conflict. And some of those conflicts can go deep into multi-generations into the future, even though this seems like a simple thing. So. It's really important to understand everyone's perspective, the parents to give their context, define what fair means as a family and move from that point onwards.

Sam Sivarajan: 19:37

I like that. I like that a lot. And it reminded me of a situation I faced when we were advising families. And there was a family that had four kids and they were all sort of involved in the business. And the patriarch had told me that really the eldest son was going to take over the business and the others weren't. in particular, there was another son that was really the you know, not good at all in terms of running the business, et cetera. And the, seemed clear to me that the patriarch intended to leave well enough alone, you know, let the shareholdings of the business pass on to all four kids in equal shares and leave it to the oldest son to figure this out, et cetera. As you talked about, I think that the intent obviously on the patriarch side wasn't bad. They wanted the business to thrive. They wanted their kids to get along. But it struck me in the moment that this was the perfect recipe for both of those things not to happen. Right. And all because the patriarch wanted to go to his final resting place, feeling that he hasn't offended any of his kids. And I think.

Kim Robinson: 20:49

Yes.

Sam Sivarajan: 21:00

What you're saying resonates so strongly with me. is the, I think, sitting down with each child to understand what defines as fair, I think is important. But I think that the parents also have to sit and ask themselves, what do they want? What is a successful succession look like to them? Does it mean that the business is thriving? Does it mean that the kids are coming together for Thanksgiving and Christmas, et cetera? And if those are some of the, you know, the goals, if you will, then what might be standing in the way of achieving those goals and what can the parents do now while they're alive to kind of position this, you know, in the right way and put all the pieces in place because, you know, after they're dead, it's too late for them and it's too late for their kids, right?

Kim Robinson: 21:51

Well, sometimes people just want to be heard and acknowledged. So there's fair outcomes, there's fair process, and there's fair treatment. So when someone says, I don't feel like this is fair, I'm curious what wasn't fair. Cause I found people can live with an outcome that wasn't their choosing if they feel the process and their treatment was fair. So sometimes we end up in... you pay for consulting dollars and our family sits around and we ended up where we started. But everybody's okay, but everybody's okay and trust has grown and communication is on the table. So that is a positive outcome because we were heading somewhere way worse if that person wasn't acknowledged and heard.

Sam Sivarajan: 22:38

Kim, that is so good and so powerful. I love it. I think you're absolutely right. It's the process. You know, as they say, it's equal opportunity versus equal result, right? mean, fair opportunity versus fair result. think that is very, very powerful. If the process looks fair, appears to be fair, et cetera, I would suspect that most kids would be okay with an unfair outcome.

Kim Robinson: 22:51

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's usually crazy stuff. assuming everybody has some level of personal maturity. It's usually stuff like, I didn't feel like I was included, you know? And that stuff grows arms and legs of its own.

Sam Sivarajan: 23:18

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 23:19

Yeah, you're very right. Yeah.

Sam Sivarajan: 23:23

Now, let's talk about the elephant in the room. Many advisors would worry about opening the proverbial Pandora's box, right? They don't feel trained to deal with complex family dynamics. mean, really, which one of us are, right? But what advice do you have for advisors who want to offer what I think you've said at one point, light touch support on the soft stuff without getting in over their heads?

Kim Robinson: 23:50

Yeah, it's, well, I completely get it. you're probably, advisors are probably worried about like, I don't want to make it worse or what if I say the wrong thing? And, and really you have to just kind of ask yourself what, what's your goal in this situation? Your goal in asking those questions isn't to stir up Pandora's box. It's, it's to be a bridge. And so if you know that you're a bridge and that's how you position yourself,

Sam Sivarajan: 24:13

Hmm.

Kim Robinson: 24:20

because you're bridging to either light support you can provide or deeper support that you've partnered with or can refer to, right? So, because the question you have to ask yourself is what happens to those plans that have been created for them if these family issues are surrounding it? Like what's gonna happen? And the odds of you

Sam Sivarajan: 24:29

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. Hmm.

Kim Robinson: 24:47

keeping, that intergenerational wealth in your practice are probably gonna go way down if there's a blow up, right? Because they're gonna blame everybody, but the kitchen sink on that. So it's not really about, it's not really about protecting yourself, it's about really saying like, is this plan feasible given that family situation and does this person need help? Now if they refuse help or they don't wanna pay for help, some people you can't help and that's fine, you know you've tried.

Sam Sivarajan: 24:57

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 25:17

Um, cause an advisor is part of a family's inner circle, right? They it's, uh, it's an amazing relationship. I have so much respect for, and you can be curious with a light touch on things like what is their legacy beyond the money? What do they want it to be? Um, do they have concerns or worries of things that are keeping up up at night as it relates to family relationships, the business legacy, their personal legacy.

Sam Sivarajan: 25:21

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 25:45

I'm sure lots of advisors ask them if their will is up to date. Many people are not. I personally like to see, like the will is obviously very important. I'm not a lawyer, but I do understand the criticalness of that document. And I also think there needs to be instructions with that aren't legal. Some people call it a love letter. And it's...

Sam Sivarajan: 25:49

Right.

Letter of Wishers.

Kim Robinson: 26:08

Yeah, letter of wishes. It's not meant to be, it's not binding, but it helps people know what to do that can create conflict. So I'll give you an example personally. My husband's parents both recently passed 28 days apart. They were 94, they had a good life. You know, there was a lot going on in that period. And while they had their major paperwork in order and the siblings were on the same page, three siblings,

Sam Sivarajan: 26:21

Wow.

Kim Robinson: 26:39

No one was ever clear whether there was going to be cremation or not. And so there was some debate on that and there was a family plot and there'd been some drama with other family members about who gets buried where in this plot and some miscommunication about how many urns if they could go in that plot. At any rate, long story short, they got to a good place, but you know, like it would have been so much easier if that was written down rather than telling one person at a time and having confusing instructions. So that's something I would definitely encourage clients to have written down. Anything, I mean, I realize celebrations of life or funerals or whatever one chooses is about the living. It's just the living or grieving and the living might not agree. So why not take that pressure off everybody and make it easier for everyone to give some basic instructions. I've left instructions that I want all my shot glasses of klepto around the world passed out with some stiff liquor and. That's then everybody can keep the one they want. You know what I mean? That's silly, but my kids will smile and they don't have to think about doing that. It's written, it's a silly bullet point. However they want to do, it's up to them. It's not, and I'm not there, but, at least they know and they can have fun with it. Another area that, yeah, sorry, go ahead, Sam.

Sam Sivarajan: 27:49

No.

I think that's brilliant. I have to...

I would say that think that's brilliant. I think you've given me an idea of what I need to put in my letter of wishes. I think my favorite bottle of whiskey and shot glasses around, I think.

Kim Robinson: 28:05

Yeah, why not? Why not? Like music you like? mean, your family knows you, of course. It just makes it feels like a gift to give your loved one that's passed, know, a celebration or a recognition that they would have liked, right? And another area is, that advisors can ask about is what their plan with the family cottages is. Family cottages are such a joyous thing and can be such... an awful experience after the people that owned it passed if you're not careful. like just, this is about poking around lightly, getting curious to saying these are areas that come up and you what's your plan with that? And again, if you consider yourself a bridge, not a problem solver, not a stirring it up unless you feel like you can solve those problems, you know, what's the bridge to help them?

Sam Sivarajan: 28:39

Mm-hmm.

No, as you were talking about, I thought that's exactly right. You know, if you view yourself as your bridge, an advisor might say, for instance, a typical challenge for many families is how they handle the cottage post death, etc. Is that something that you've taken care of, you know, or is that something to be done yet? And I think positioning it like that, you're not saying that you client have a problem, you're saying as an advisor, I've seen this happen in other families, you're flagging the issue and then it's up to the client at that point to decide, okay, am I going to return the ball or am I going to stay mom and not? So I think in that light touch way is the way you described that. think the advisor can feel comfortable that they've sort of done the job. They've flagged the issues that they should flag.

Kim Robinson: 29:28

Yeah.

Sam Sivarajan: 29:49

you know, been that holistic trusted advisor without necessarily having to get deep into the weeds on things that the client may not want to.

Kim Robinson: 30:00

Well, tell a little, I mean, all advisors have these great stories of things that, know, planning it has been put in place that worked well and things that haven't, right? They've seen it, we've all seen it. you know, tell a little story, get them thinking about how the family thought the cottage was settled and they didn't really communicate with their kids, they didn't check in with their kids. And you know what, five years later, the kids have a different opinion about it. we raise the topic of family cottage once a year with them.

Sam Sivarajan: 30:18

Mm.

Kim Robinson: 30:30

just because we wanna know, and we put some insurance in place to trigger to cover expenses. And if no one wants it, then it gets distributed. it's little things you can do to just take problems off the table, right? So I wrote an article called, How Advisors Can Help With The Soft Stuff on my website, which we'll talk about later, www.empowerplanning.ca. But it's there, it has some ideas in it. It's certainly not everything, but if you are interested in some.

light touch stuff, you'll find some examples in there.

Sam Sivarajan: 31:02

That's great. That will be a very valuable resource for advisors. So let's talk about family meetings. They can be a game changer, but they're obviously very difficult to execute well. What does good facilitation look like in your view? And how can advisors know when they need to bring in a professional like yourself, for instance?

Kim Robinson: 31:24

Right. Yeah, it's a great question. Family meetings are important because that's where communication happens and it can be horrible if they create conflict that just continues to grow in a pattern of dysfunction, right? Conflict itself isn't bad. It's what we do with it and how we behave around it. Conflict is good. Conflict is something needs to change or we need to get on the same page.

Sam Sivarajan: 31:45

Right.

Kim Robinson: 31:53

You know, we don't make improvements without some element of conflict. Again, a positive conflict is different than negative. So, you know, lot of families try to run their own meetings and a lot of families are actually quite successful at it because they're doing well, you know, that they needed to run the business and other families are not. The thing I'll say with pure facilitation is that when you're facilitating a meeting, you can't also be a participant.

Sam Sivarajan: 32:22

Right, right.

Kim Robinson: 32:23

Right, like if you're tracking the content and you're tracking solutions and you're tracking how you can contribute to the content with your expertise and experience, it means you're not monitoring the room. Right, it's really hard to do both. And so a facilitator is really is aware of what the client's purpose is and they're keeping that in mind at all time. And that facilitator is saying, okay, based on how the meeting is progressing, are we tracking towards that purpose? Or are we circling around in the wrong direction? So the facilitator's job is to notice the gap and bring us back on track. That's what the facilitator's job is. Monitor the room. What are we trying to do? Are we moving towards that or not? Do we need to shift things up? Do we need to take a break? Do we need to put something in a parking lot for later? Are we in the weeds when we shouldn't be? Are we adhering to our communication directive, that kind of stuff?

Sam Sivarajan: 33:00

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 33:22

And it's different facilitators of different styles. Some are very attuned to the time and the agenda. Others are more loose and let things flow and you have to decide what works best for you. But 80 % of the work is helping people talk to each other. And when, for example, when I was working with a client that was father, son, that were having, were really struggling with each other. and they worked closely together in the business. there was some yelling, there was some dysfunction, was assumptions that were incorrect, there were some tears. And you might say, that's a horrendous meeting. They needed to get that out. then my job is then to say, I think you're saying this. And do you realize when you say that, it makes this person feel like X. so like I'm...

Sam Sivarajan: 34:04

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 34:17

very comfortable doing conflict resolution and communication management and that kind of stuff and getting them to where they want to go. But I also like, just like, I know I can't do everything for everyone. I would not give anyone tax advice. I wouldn't tell them where to invest their money, whether they need insurance. That's for sure. That's not my expertise, but I'm also not a therapist. So I know where the line is to say, okay, they need to go to therapy. Like this is beyond good communication and working through conflicts.

Sam Sivarajan: 34:40

Right, right.

Kim Robinson: 34:47

I think you were asking also, and I'm sorry, I forgot to mention it about where to find somebody. I thought about it for a while. There's two, like, we all think we can facilitate meetings. And I think if it's not a challenging meeting, we all can, right? We're professionals, we communicate, we know what we're doing. If there's gonna be some challenge to it, and if you really need that meaning to be super productive, it's better to have somebody with a facilitation expertise do it, because that's what they do.

Sam Sivarajan: 35:16

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 35:18

So there's an association called IAF, which is the International Association of Facilitators, and there's a Canadian chapter. So you can go on their website and find a list. The problem is that this is hard to sort, so it might take you 100 years, but it is there. I hope they continue to get it better. But that organization, you know, they have people that are endorsed facilitators, certified facilitators, and they've had to go through a process of vetting. and they have to go through a process of keeping current. And then of course, I think a lot of advisors have heard of the family enterprise advisor. There's a directory and that directory is quite good to sort. And there's a lot of people that take those courses and it's fantastic for that multidisciplinary approach because you've got lawyers and accounts, financial advisors, bankers, et cetera, all on there taking those courses.

Sam Sivarajan: 35:55

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 36:16

And it's what you want to make sure for facilitation is that people have that soft stuff. So you might want to sort by, because they have a great sorting system, dispute resolution and facilitation as an example. Then you're going to get people in your area that have that focus. Because if the person's primary focus is technical, it means their primary focus isn't the soft stuff. And you have to kind of decide what the person needs.

Sam Sivarajan: 36:26

Right.

That's great. That's great advice. Now, Kim, you've worked with many families over the years. Is there a story or experience that stands out where a small shift in communication or mindset made a big difference in preserving both the wealth and the family dynamics?

Kim Robinson: 36:57

Yeah, yeah, quite a few. One that comes to mind is a family that has multiple businesses that are interrelated and there's three siblings in the business. Luckily, all siblings are hardworking and smart and committed. So we're starting from a good base and the father is, well, he's second generation. I call him first because he's changed the business so much, but they've had poor communication and growing tension between them because

Sam Sivarajan: 37:21

Mmm.

Kim Robinson: 37:27

They kind of have like sibling competitiveness going on at times and they have that fair versus equal thing pop up frequently. So instead of working through their issues, what they've done is they've each landed themselves in a different part of the business, whether they love that or not, whoever was there first got to choose first and they're really running as silos. So when you're looking in family businesses or any business, if you see people deliberately running as silos, which

Sam Sivarajan: 37:30

Okay.

Wow.

Kim Robinson: 37:55

you know, is a good business strategy, but when they're avoiding the overlaps areas, that's an avoidance tactic. And so, well, as long as dad is there to handle the overlap areas and address the bickering and kind of be the, you know, the vote that reigns supreme, you know, it works. However, you know, they're building their own kingdoms. They're focused on their piece and not the whole.

Sam Sivarajan: 38:02

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 38:22

And the father often says, the enemy's on the outside, not the inside. Now that's a bit of a dramatic statement. What he's trying to do is teach them to work together. But oftentimes it doesn't come across that way, particularly in the beginning. So when I started working with them, they were not really, they were not having any meetings. They were not talking to each other, avoiding each other. And there were certain areas they were fighting about and they were fighting in front of employees and it wasn't great.

Sam Sivarajan: 38:46

Bye bye.

Kim Robinson: 38:48

You know, we did the discovery process. We talked with each person, you know, did the reporting of, know, here's where you're lying, here's where you're not. And it was so important to the father that they keep this business together because of the the overlaps. And plus it takes risk off each business, right? So what we did is we did take that pressure off at the situation to be forced to work together. And we decided to do a trial run where they manage the shared middle together as a family board. so, you know, work and we work through tough stuff. Like they don't have the same risk tolerance. They don't bring the same skills to the table. Some of them make decisions very differently than others and they're, slowly improving. And now it's been, it's been a while. Like I don't, I don't meet with them monthly, sometimes not even quarterly depends on what's going on in their business. but when we do meet, sometimes we have some intense all day meetings, but, you know, they're now meeting. just the three siblings to talk about those overlap areas. They're having management meetings, they're re-engaging, they're making some decisions together. So really the thing that shifted is their mindset. They're starting to recognize that operating in silos has risk and that the shared middle would be expensive to replicate. So while we're still in that trial run, we've seen a lot of positive movement. So who knows where that will go. But you can't shove people where they don't wanna go, even if it makes business sense.

Sam Sivarajan: 40:14

Mm-hmm.

Kim Robinson: 40:14

You got to prove to them it's possible and put that again, a lot of systems out of place. There's a relationship problems and there's personal development problems. So there's coaching on the personal development. We've created personal development plans for each of them. We've done relationship rescues on a brother, sister relationship that's been sideways. And we've put a lot of systems in place like governance and meetings and policies that they now are on the same page. There's a lot less fighting.

Sam Sivarajan: 40:45

I like that. And I think the one thing that kind of resonated with me is that it's a process, right? I think avoidance isn't solving the problem. But if you want, if it's genuinely important to you, you'll start the process and the process will have to be refined and evolve over time, etc. But it's like anything else that, you know, if you're expecting problems that have been lingering for a long time that haven't been addressed that are going to get solved overnight with the magic wand, that's not realistic. But if you accept that there is both that the status quo doesn't work and that there is a future state that you would like to get to, I think those are the two key points that are key endpoints that you need to start from. And then the process, you get a professional like you or other professionals to kind of help you where you need it. and you can work through that process.

Kim Robinson: 41:40

That's right, yeah. But it's really about empowering those siblings to try that trial run. So everybody was okay to do the trial run, even though they were very skeptical. And I also said to them, a positive outcome of the trial run is that we don't wanna work together. Let's not put a pressure on an outcome. Let's see where it leads us.

Sam Sivarajan: 41:49

Correct.

That's good.

That is good. Well, Kim, we're coming to the end of our podcast. So I have a few final rapid fire questions for you.

Kim Robinson: 42:13

Okay, I'll try to be quick.

Sam Sivarajan: 42:15

No problem. You don't have to be quick. They're just rapid fire. So number one, professionally, what is the most important lesson you've learned over the years?

Kim Robinson: 42:25

Well, it's what we've been talking about. Improved communication fixes most problems in life and in business, family business or otherwise, and as well as with estate planning. If we're not communicating our intent, if we're not having conversation, there's gonna be assumptions and unfortunately that creates dysfunctional conflict.

Sam Sivarajan: 42:48

I love that. And I've learned this and I still keep learning this on a daily basis. And I think your point about assumptions is a critical one here. I think that even something as technical as call it investment management, et cetera, I found that things that we take for granted, that we have common definitions of what is balanced portfolio, what is a conservative portfolio, et cetera. mean, those are assumptions that we're making. And to develop a better relationship between advisor and client, for instance, you need to kind of make sure that we're on the same page on that assumption of what we what the advisor is calling a balanced portfolio and what the client thinks that means, etc. Right. So communication and assumptions and level setting to make sure that you're on the same page, I think I keep learning is very critical.

Kim Robinson: 43:38

Mm-hmm.

Sam Sivarajan: 43:39

What is one practical tip you would offer listeners keen on applying your insights?

Kim Robinson: 43:47

Well, I'm going to cheat and give two quick ones. The first is be the bridge. Be curious. You don't need to be clinical. You don't need to be a problem solver. Open up space. You are in a prestige place of being in the client's inner circle. You're in a position to create that space from the talk about their soft stuff. Plant the seed and offer resources to help. The second would be on the succession front.

Sam Sivarajan: 43:50

Please, go ahead.

Kim Robinson: 44:15

Disaster proofing is easier way in for people.

Sam Sivarajan: 44:20

I love it, love it. Kim, this has been such a great discussion and as I said, one that particularly resonates with me. If listeners want to learn more about you or find your work, where do they go?

Kim Robinson: 44:35

I have a website called empowerplanning.ca. I mean, but with a handle like Seekers Robinson, you can find me pretty easy on Google or LinkedIn. And, you know, obviously I can't help everybody. I do take on clients every year. I really love the work. And I have people that I know and I can help you navigate through how to find someone in your area, point you to the resources if you need it.

Sam Sivarajan: 44:59

That's great. just for all the listeners, Kim's website and LinkedIn, et cetera, will be in the show notes to this episode. Kim, always great to talk to you. Thank you for joining us today and the Future Ready advisor.

Kim Robinson: 45:13

Thanks Sam, appreciate it.